What's with tapered pistons?

[Rebelrc]

Hello racers:)
What benefits are you finding from running these?
Or do they not make any difference over normal kit ones?

[Rebelrc]

Do we need a poll?

[Big G]

sorted teh back end out on my B44 a lot over the small fast bumps

[discostu]

hey scott they certanly feel better than standard ones in my cars

stu

[Rebelrc]

Hey stu
Missed you wednesday!;)
Are you sure it's not just psychological with the pistons? Cause you have paid for them.
I just cannot see that they make any difference:)

[bigred5765]

there only tapered on the under side, and yeh they make a big difference they rebound alot quicker which is were you want it to work,main benift will be on as already stated bumpy tracks,

[bert digler]

there only tapered on the under side, and yeh they make a big difference they rebound alot quicker which is were you want it to work,main benift will be on as already stated bumpy tracks,

ask roger :)

[Big G]

Basically the short straight after the 1st corner on the kiddy track going into the far left tip corner can be pretty bumpy. After fitting the Thea pistons it was a completely different car. Well worth fitting

[Rebelrc]

I was talking about them to a neighbour of mine who is some kind of scientist fluid dynamesis type person lol
He thinks the same as I do and that is........
You cannot compress a fluid therefore if it has the same bore tolerances ( ie fits the bore )then it doesn't make any difference what shape the back is! Where is this taper sending the oil? Nowhere that's the answer
The only reason I can see them feeling better is for the actual material them selves being softer therefore giving a secondary damping force by flexing.

If there is only oil in the shock it makes no difference what shape the top or bottom are, especially which way round the taper is top or bottom lol it makes no change at all.
Lol
Think about it:)

[Darren Boyle]

That is all well and good but makes no allowance for the "suction" effect of a "flat" piston against the bottom of a "flat" shock barrel or cylinder, a tapered piston will "move away" (ie upwards with a shock) that a flat piston thats "sucks to" when it starts to move....

[Rebelrc]

I was talking about them to a neighbour of mine who is some kind of scientist fluid dynamesis type person lol
He thinks the same as I do and that is........
You cannot compress a fluid therefore if it has the same bore tolerances ( ie fits the bore )then it doesn't make any difference what shape the back is! Where is this taper sending the oil? Nowhere that's the answer
The only reason I can see them feeling better is for the actual material them selves being softer therefore giving a secondary damping force by flexing.

If there is only oil in the shock it makes no difference what shape the top or bottom are, especially which way round the taper is top or bottom lol it makes no change at all.
Lol
Think about it:)

[Rebelrc]

Sorry about the double post... Stupid Iphone
Hello dms glad you are up for the debate
You are wrong though!
No matter what shape flat or kit kat matters, you see that what ever happens above the piston affects below the piston exactly the same.
So if it's being pushed up we have pack and suction below and vice versand cause you cannot( CANNOT ) compress a fluid at all there will never be a differential between above and below... It will be linear simples hope this makes sense
Now let the bashing me commence as per normal . Lol
It's like fishing for a bite lol:lol:

[bigred5765]

so why do all the fast things in the world have a point at the front,
you can feel the difference static never mind watching the car on the track,

[discostu]

Hey stu
Missed you wednesday!;)
Are you sure it's not just psychological with the pistons? Cause you have paid for them.
I just cannot see that they make any difference:)

hey buddy

yeah unfortuantly i was still in nottingham great place but proper crap when you are still there ar 5.30 and 200miles to go to get home.

anyway i think again i do feel they make a differnce not sure about the whole science thing but in comparison back to back running the taperd do feel better in my view.

they could be a simular debate about big bore shocks aswell as there is no reason why the piston hole size oil wt and spring tuned perfectly could give the same feel pack consitance as a smaller bore shock. it seems to me the reason why bigbores work is because the cars are heavier than ever and the shocks are setup differnetly.

stu

ill be there wednesday

[pugboy]

Not tried the tapered ones but these are the right effect in theory...

http://www.rpmrcproducts.com/faq/pistons.htm

I thought they worked great but then had some reliability issues with them and e clips popping off inside shocks...worked well while they worked

[Rebelrc]

Hi Carl
Those pointed objects like bullets, trains,ferarris lol all are going through air!
It doesn't make a difference pointed or not! Put a pointed piston in with no holes fill with oil and what do you get ? Then try it with a flat piston with no holes ........ Same yes?
Dms thought it was cause of suction at the top and bottom behind the piston but the oil is as solid as the bottom or top so the suction is equal all the way. Hope this makes sense

The only way to actually do what people claim is to have a valve in the piston (early pred ) I have been using some homemade valves in my dex410 for a while now and they actually do return faster cause I have had them on a dti
I also dti'ed the taper pistons and found that the movement was linear!

Does anyone get it?

[Bagman]

I'm pretty sure that if you look hard enough you can find pointy things in the water. Submarines, boats, I believe even fish. It's true that you cannot compress a liquid by much (you can by a small percentage) but there will be a suction effect that can be substantially reduced by lessening the contact area. I don't think there is any getting away from that.

[Gayo]

I agree with you (and your nerdy neighbour:D) Rebel, but I think the thing is in 1/10th off-road, we use emulsion shocks, and emulsion can be compressed.

[Rebelrc]

Yes those fish are pointy but they are not in asealed environment ! If the piston is releaved of work (suction as you call it) by the taper . The benefits will then be cancelled out proportionally by the pack above and vice versa.
Yes you can compress a fluid by a very tiny amount with about 100 tons not really applicable to our toy cars.
So therefore taper up or down it makes no difference as does the taper it's self
Please don't shoot me down. Just trying to be helpful
Valves are the way to go
On a dex
Drill a 2pm hole in a piston and keep your normal holes also then screw on top with the piston securing screw a thin piece of polythene wide enough to cover the 2mm hole but not covering the normal holes.
Hope this makes sense as I am typing and roofing at the same time lol

[bodgit]

The tapered side will have more surface area for the oil to act on therefore spreading the load. Fluids have the same pressure regardless of where they are in a containment area. Although the oil pressure is equall both sides of the piston the greater surface area will in effect have less pressure per sq mm.

[Wraggy]

From Ronny who makes the Ghea Tapered Pistons

Hi Guys,

When we first started making pistons I was not sure how they really worked,so I figured that I had to measure them to fully understand what happens.

With some help from a friend we started to build this machine for measuring low to high speed damping forces and we can also simulate different pack situations.

When you measure for example a 16mm big bore piston from low to high speed you will find them to be quite linear up to the high speed area where the damping force gets more progressive.

With our pistons we make the damping force more linear than standard pistons and that's what make the cars calm down.

Today we are testing what we call "pack control" that means you just change oil with outside temperature to get the right low speed damping and choose the piston depending on what high speed damping you need.

Thanks/Ronny Guta
GHEA

[RogerM]

It's all to do with discharge coefficients and edge effects .... but nobody asked me yet so won't bore with the details .. other than they should and indeed do give the effects stated, basically changing the balance between bump and rebound but more significantly changing the pack ratio.

As for not being able to compress a fluid I can assure you that if you speak to people working in diesel fuel systems (for example) they will tell you that it is very much the case you can. Most operating conditions thrown at a modern common rail diesel fuel system the fuel is not only compressed but actually has higher stiffeness than the the metal around it, some pretty impressive bore dilations and profile changes for the designers to deal with.

[Rebelrc]

Thanks Ron for contributing
How does the high speed damping get more progressive?
And how does your machine work, it sounds interesting
Is anyone getting where I am coming from?

[bigred5765]

Thanks Ron for contributing
How does the high speed damping get more progressive?
And how does your machine work, it sounds interesting
Is anyone getting where I am coming from?

I dont think anyone does,
so you havent even tried them but your neighbours says they cant work,
are shock piston unlike full sized dont seal to the damper side so oil leaks around the edge, the tape allows the oil to flow faster aorund that, what hard to under stand about that, more than one person on here have tried them are using them and know they work,

[Rebelrc]

I am not just speaking for the sake of it Roger as I qualified in diesel tec and compressed air brakes tec
The fuel is pressurised perfectly not compressed as you say
If it was it is yes stronger than the metal of the pump and incorrect adjusted will destroy the pump we are talking 1600 bar 23206.04psi do you think our Ali shocks with little just fitting o rings pushed by a plastic wishbone will take that, :)
This isn't meant negatively . Just a good bit of debate for those who do need stuff to think about.
Cheers for your input Roger
We together will get the truth lol
I am working today on a large scaffold and a lorry has just crashed into it and driven off. Pants change required

[Rebelrc]

Carl don't go all nasty nick cotton on me
I have used them .
And just wanted to gain peoples ideas to why they work!
that oil passing over the taper and around the piston that you talk about , then where does it go? I will tell you smack into more oil so that counsels that idea out
Cheers anyway Carl

[jondell]

I think my thoughts on this topic differ from others.....

The problem with RC cars is that as much as they are scaled down, it is not possible to scale down the laws of physics. if we where to scale up everything about our cars, we would have a massively soft and bouncy car. It would almost be funny how bouncy it would be... think beach buggy. Now i dont know about you, but i dont fancy the thought of going flat out on a super grippy surface, with velcro tyres in said beach buggy, but we do when controlling our RC cars (mind you i would never want to be in one)... comparing super grippy surface and velcro tyres in the real world would be tarmac and soft rubber tyres. Try pushing a real race car down and you will struggle... super hard suspension, but of course they dont go over bumps or jumps.

The thing missing in the RC world is downforce and load.. again scale our cars up, and your have a super lightweight car. Add suspension that does not move on a super grippy track with velcro tyres, and it would fall over all the time due to massive ride height..... I could go on and on. but point is, you cant always compare real life with RC... certain things you can, but only with a RC head on.

Taking that into consideration, my thinking is that a shock does not work as a shock on a car... more close to that of a motocross bike. Add into that our shock goes up and down at a million miles an hour with a stoke length that is again un-comparable.

Soooo to the taper shaped piston.... with the taper on the lower face of the piston, the shape allows the oil under it to be forced to the outside of the piston where it flows through the one hole that does not exist.... ie the gap between barrel and piston. Now if we had an o-ring around the piston edge which sealed the piston to the barrel, chances are the taper would have no effect, but we dont because the friction would mess up our long stroke, multi thrusting shocker.

This free floating piston, which is being moved from one side of the barrel to the other, appreciates the oil being directed to the path of least resistance, the gap between piston and barrel, wheres when the piston moves upwards, the oil hits a deadhead of the flat faced piston.

Maybe this could be better proved with a piston that is shaped like a contact lens. hmmmm, or maybe that would just develop a whole host of other things... must copy right that.

[jondell]

I dont think anyone does,
so you havent even tried them but your neighbours says they cant work,
are shock piston unlike full sized dont seal to the damper side so oil leaks around the edge, the tape allows the oil to flow faster aorund that, what hard to under stand about that, more than one person on here have tried them are using them and know they work,

Ahhh, you beat me to it, hey ho

[jondell]

Carl don't go all nasty nick cottonon me
I have used them .
And just wanted to gain peoples ideas to why they work!
that oil passing over the taper and around the piston that you talk about , then where does it go? I will tell you smack into more oil so that counsels that idea out
Cheers anyway Carl

Its the piston that is moving not the oil. The gap around the piston should be view exactly like a piston hole.

Different subject and interested in your thoughts, do you have any thoughts on why 6 holes of 1.0mm feels harder than 3 holes of 2.0mm?

[Richard Lowe]

There are two other variables that haven't been mentioned yet.

A tapered piston has less surface area around it's circumference to interact with the shock body as it gets thinner at the outside. Also on the tapered side the angle between that face and the edge of the piston is less than the 90 degrees of the flat side.

Would the lesser angle change pack differently in each direction? Or would the reduced area make the way the shock pack's more progressive (is the oil flow turbulent all the way round the side of the piston when it packs :confused:)?

[Rebelrc]

Cheers Richard
Thats what i am trying to get at
obviously i know that oil can go around the sides of the piston as i mentioned at the start the same tolerances
now i am confused:eh?:
imagine having two identical water tanks with equal ammounts of water
one has a taper in an outlet pipe leading to a 15mm hole
and the other a straight step then a 15mm hole
they will drain the same.i think:)

[Rebelrc]

I think I have cracked it!
Why the ghea pistons work so well
When the piston is driven in fast its hydrostatic pressure ( pack )deflects it sideways ( especialy on our angle driven shocks )where friction plays a small part but less on the taper
But when returning the hydrostatic pressure on the taper centralises the piston aiding it's return smoothly
But to get a large difference lots of pack with a quick return you need a valve.
Is that right?
Thanks to everyone who has commented

[Rebelrc]

Thought this was a perfect thread for mark christopher to comment on! But nowt! Lol mark

[bigred5765]

lol no nasty nick mate,
just lots of people saying it works,to be honest don't think most know exactly why it works tbh i don't care just know it works thats all that matter lol
its not a massive difference theres no need for a massive difference just enough to help keep the wheels on the deck :)lots of things we do in racing and use make no real sense, but on he track if it helps hell who cares,

[Northy]

If anyone wants to play with the RPM dual stage ones I have a HUGE bag full here in front of me! :o

G

[bigred5765]

ill play with some from ur bag gee ;)

[RogerM]

Ok, here goes.

As Mr Lowe correctly states there are benefits from having the smaller interacting area at the outside edge, they don't touch so it's not friction that matters but the way in which the fluid passes the two edges (one perpendicular to the vector of travel and the other at some angle slightly less than that) and also the length it has to flow past. The length is important as the flow (yes even at the rates of movement and displacements we see in an RC shock) will transition between laminar and turbulent flow at some point along that surface depending on the fluid properties, gap between surfaces and the specifics of the motion of the piston. The interaction between this and the edge conditions will have an effect on the level of resistance of the piston to the displacement it is subjected to.

So now we have only considered the piston as a disc with no holes in and a certain amount of bypass flow around it's edge and already we see a slight (and it is slight to be honest) but still potentially important difference in resistance depending on the direction of the displacement, this difference will be more marked the faster the piston tries to accelerate and / or the heavier the damper oil weight by the way.


Now the more interesting bit, the holes in the damper piston.

Hole edge conditions first;

The simplest way to think of this, and this is a little simplified, is to just consider the outlet areas at either end of the hole when measured perpendicular to the hole itself.
Again this is one of those things where a picture is worth a 1000 words! Draw one up yourself to help with understanding (I can't upload pictures from here saddly).

If the hole in the piston is drilled perpendicular to the non tappered side the surface area will be simply the area associated with the diameter of the hole. Now where the same hole breaks out on the tappered side of the piston the area will be LARGER because on the surface it breaks out through it's form will be eliptical not round.
Does that make sense so far?

This larger area gives a higher potential flow through the piston but only for a very short distance as it soon gets throttled down to the flow associated with the normal drilling size. This is again a slight difference but not the most significant one.

The magic (or plain old orifice theory to those of us cursed with a life of fluid dynamics);

Now as we have said the hole entry flow area isn't the major factor so what is? Well it is the effect caused by the fluid flowing around the edge of the hole to enter / leave. The larger entry caused by the elipse causes, again very simplified, an effect similar to a bell mouth (often called a velocity stack in carb' / fuel injection / air filter catalogues) accelerating the fluid into the hole and stalling it on the exit in the opposite direction. This cuases the eddies in the flow path to converge in a slightly different place in the flow path than they normally would changing the position in the hole where the turbulent flow starts to recombine to become laminar (boundry conditions ignored to reduce complication).
The proportion of the flow through a short orifice that is laminar relative to that which is turbulent will dictate the flow characteristics through that hole.
The difference between the sharp edge (flat side) and the edge with the effective lead in (tappered side) is more marked than you might imagine and it only takes a small angle difference, especially if one face it perfectly perpendicular to the vector of displacement, to make a significant bias in one direction of motion!

Now there are many, many other things to consider such as the effects of the subtrate fluid (in our case silicone based oil), the pressure in the system, wether the system is pure (only contains fluid like bladdered shocks) or areated (like all RC shocks without bladders), the range of displacement speeds and crucially acceleratins in both directions .... you could go on and on and on (thankfully I won't on this occasion)

I hope that explaination made some sense to you all. The "angled hole breaking out in to a realatively large volume" trick is often used in fluid transfer systems where flow needs to be non-symetrical, say when you want to drain something slowly but be able to refill it faster in the other.


I wish I could have uploaded pictures to help explain it and I am more than happy to talk to any of you I meet at race meetings if you want further explainations, just ask :D

For those interested in fluid dynamics the best place to start is understanding REynolds Number http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number and work form there. Will help if I can.


*** Not a dig @ you Rebel but more for information mate. Diesel IS compressed in modern fuel systems [i.e. it's bulk modulus changes], yes the system is pressurised which is different, in fact it's around 1400 bar this states to take place in ernest. Here is about the best link I could find quickly http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/Issue/Article/False/70094/Issue ... hope it helps with the understanding.

I am a senior development engineer [Dr. of conceptual fuild dynamics according to my tacky business cards, typical US compnay things] for THE world technology leader in diesel fuel systems, currently working on common rail fuel systems for Euro 6 & US13 emmision regulations up to around 3000 bar and also something that will turn compression ignition fuel systems on it's head ... circa 2015 for that one though and obviously I can't talk about it on a public forum.

Sad as it is to say this sort of shizzle is my bag baby ;) ***

[Rebelrc]

Nice post Roger
but every thing you have said is completly wrong!:mad:
only kidding:D
Thats got to be one of the best on oople:o
hats off to ya!
i am glad that you explained that in leymans terms lol:D
you have lost me but it reads beautifully
this post originally was a bit of a wind up but now has become very legitimate and informative, many thanks
so i was wrong on all counts i think?
dont know anymore.:cry:
sorry if i upset people when fishing for a bite....it just a bit of fun....today i caught a big correct great white shark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My mates think its better than eastenders
Thanks for posting
Scott:)

[RogerM]

Scott, I can try and clarify a bit when I get more time .... let me know where it gets confussing and I'll do my best.

The more people who understand what works and how it works the better as far as I am concerned ... there needs to be at least one person in each and every club who can help others and is willing to do so.

RC was instrumental in my choice to become an engineer (think I made that choice about age 11 or so).

[frobes2]

I must remember to fill my shocks with diesel before racing this evening!!

:D

Dicko..

[DaveG28]

Errr, right, anyway, so real world time:

My car is awesome over single bumps/jump landings, but goes all to s**t when faced with a ripple section. Will tapered pistons help? (with taper on the underside)

[bigred5765]

they will defo make it better then it is now,;)

[ghea]

Thanks Ron for contributing
How does the high speed damping get more progressive?
And how does your machine work, it sounds interesting
Is anyone getting where I am coming from?
Hi!
The damping force will increase in relation to the piston speed in a quite
linear curve as long as the fluid is laminar but when the piston reach the
high speed area the fluid gets turbulent and create what we call pack.
Hope thats what you were asking for?

This thread do hide somewere here on Oople with the pics and all but dont know were so i will attache them again.

With the Dyno machine i can measure damping force with different speed and stroke.
I have to make some of you disappointed with this info:
I dont see any differens in damping forces wether the piston is moving in or out:o
The only difference i can measure is that the taper pistons is more linear.
I have my idea Why but hey..I need to have some secrets to my self:)
What happens in the car is much more complex than i ever is capable to measure so there might be some other effect to.
In the diagram you can see the most straigt curve as the taper piston compared to more progressive pistons.
Lets see who will crack this nut first:woot:
/Ronny
GHEA

[Rebelrc]

looks like my theory was out the window and proved completley wrong but one thing i was correct about is they are more complicated than first thought
Thanks Ghea, i best be ordering some then as i am running homemade ones (tapers) and they are not accurate enough
Machine looks cool
Cheers:thumbsup:
love techy threads

[Rebelrc]

I missed that you say there was no difference in damping force in or out!
That was the point I was trying to make as you can see :woot:
But there is also a definate benefit from fitting them
Everybody's happy
Thanks:)

[RogerM]

Geah, just out of interest what range of piston accelerations and displacement speeds were tested?

[ghea]

Geah, just out of interest what range of piston accelerations and displacement speeds were tested?

In this specifik test we reach 1.2m/sek at 50hz (if i remember corectly)
As you can see of the test we are just in the beginning of the pack area.
/Ronny

[SHY]

I'm sure RogerM's post is the most accurate, but it's too complex for me to understand :D

I'm impressed by Lowe's observations, very good point! And for sure yes, the oil doesn't just flow through the holes!

So the whole idea with tapered pistons are a quicker rebound = still pack after jumps, but quicker reaction on bumps?

I've also got those RPM dual-stage shock pistons lying around, but never tested them. They supposedly do the same, they divide on rebound catering for a quicker piston return.

Myself I didn't feel a difference with Ghea pistons, but then again I didn't do back-to-back tests.

Agreed that comparing RC to full scale very seldom is fruitful, RC racing is a basket case!

Why don't the RPM pistons work? (in layman's terms please!)

And when will we see more "through dampers"? I've only seen that on 1:12 so far... With shocks without bladders for compensating the changed volume when the shaft goes in/out, I'm thinking this must be the ideal solution?

Btw have anyone else discovered that some AE shock cylinders are not perfectly true inside? Put on a Losi piston (which are slightly larger) and you'll feel it pinch at certain places... not ideal!

[ghea]

Maybe someone would like to do a simple test?

Take the rear shocks and flip one of the taper pistons over.
Make sure the shocks have the same rebound after filling them.
Also be sure that the preload of the spring are the same on both shocks.

Put them on the car and compress and lift the car without letting the wheels touch the surface.
If you repeat this a couple of time you should see if one of the shocks rebound quicker or not.

Please share what you find out.
/Ronny

[Richard Lowe]

How about if someone has one of the SLR camera's that can shoot high framerate video filmed a car landing from being dropped?

Or just put the two shocks with opposed pistons on one of those losi shock balancing tools and see if they can notice a difference?

[SHY]

Or just put the two shocks with opposed pistons on one of those losi shock balancing tools and see if they can notice a difference?

Blast! You beat me to it! :woot:

Cool tool! And I was surprised to see how equal the shocks actually are!!!

[SHY]

Maybe someone would like to do a simple test?

Take the rear shocks and flip one of the taper pistons over.
Make sure the shocks have the same rebound after filling them.
Also be sure that the preload of the spring are the same on both shocks.

Put them on the car and compress and lift the car without letting the wheels touch the surface.
If you repeat this a couple of time you should see if one of the shocks rebound quicker or not.

Please share what you find out.
/Ronny

You guys could make a cool advertising movie here:

-two identical & setup cars
-one with std. pistons, one with Ghea
-exact same drop time & height (make a simple tool)
-test, film, and try again with swapped shocks on the two cars

>> show in slow motion...

[reg]

or just put them on and go racing:thumbsup:

[ianjoyner]

I have to make some of you disappointed with this info:
I dont see any differens in damping forces wether the piston is moving in or out:o
The only difference i can measure is that the taper pistons is more linear.
I have my idea Why but hey..I need to have some secrets to my self:)


So are you saying it doesn't matter which way up we run the pistons, the only effect is more linearity (less pack effect), or do you want to share some more info? :)

[SHY]

Why not taper on both sides?

[AmiSMB]

Or like Xray for 1/8th rallycross cars where they made the hole tapered. Has made great reading in this thread but at the end of the day if people like the change then always do what works for you. That is one of the fun things in this miniaturized world we play in.
The truth is out there :)

[SHY]

Btw I've heard some say that the shocks will (and "should") have air inside (bubbles). Anyone got more on this?

I've for years been using vacuum pumps to get them free of air when overhauling - is this a vaste of time???

[ghea]

So are you saying it doesn't matter which way up we run the pistons, the only effect is more linearity (less pack effect), or do you want to share some more info? :)
So far as i can see it makes no difference wich way you put the pistons.

The linearity makes the high speed damping softer and thats what make the car feel more calm over the rough parts

For you guys i really have no problems with sharing what i have learned after building the Dyno but i like to believe i am one step ahead of my competitors though:)

@SHY
When building shocks with wery little rebound you will create under pressure when pulling out the piston rod.The under pressure makes the air suck in.At least i have not yet achieved to keep the air out.
If you dont want air in your shock yo need to build them with almost maximum rebound but it seams that the majority like them with less.
/Ronny

[Rebelrc]

Many thanks Ronny
Taper up or down ,doesn't matter
That's all I need to here
Wooohoooo!
I win! For all those that said I was wrong:D
Many thanks Ronny for your honesty and test findings
Good luck with ghea
I have some fitted now in my vega and durango they are ace!::wub
Thanks everyone for your input and opinions
Good thread