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-   -   Mod racing getting silly (http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119487)

johnboy 15-01-2013 10:09 AM
Mod racing getting silly
 
Following on from the 17.5t too fast thread. Mod racing at York has become near on dangerous now with its silly speeds in that hall. Take last sat night someone got hit in the nuts whils there were on the rostrum. The speeds of the cars are far too much for most racers at the club. Yes I had a 6.5t in my 4 wd but did say that it was far too quick. Look at the American style of racing they race what they feel comfortable and if its too fast they don't run it. If 13.5 turn is there most popular class then that must be for a reason? How can people learn to race properly when they are going from one crash to the next as the cars speeds are too high due running fast motors. A few year ago it proposed at the agm for limits on the motors but was shot down. I think it needs it still. Now before you reply with it won't work ect ect. Think about costs of slightly slowing down tyres last longer and the biggest factor racing gets better as people have time to think about how to overtake not that I caught the car in front so fast did t have the time to avoid hitting them.

450kid 15-01-2013 11:14 AM
I think I might start racing turtles!

footey 15-01-2013 11:30 AM
john i do agree in away but for them to do this i think it is inpossible i think it has to be down to the indivual to realise that there car is to fast and slow it down acordingly

450kid 15-01-2013 11:39 AM
I agree with footey if the driver can't realise there car is too fast it's there fault! Slower is faster because they can drive easier. Anyone wanting to run a13.5 or 10.5 class I will join them this week if people want?

johnboy 15-01-2013 12:08 PM
Trouble is some quite a few drivers don't realise it's too much for them. I'm just putting my opinion across from what Ive seen over the last couple of times being at York.

daz 15-01-2013 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by footey (Post 733125)
john i do agree in away but for them to do this i think it is inpossible i think it has to be down to the indivual to realise that there car is to fast and slow it down acordingly
Bang on the money there Shane. Worst case is the first 4wd heat at York, the standard of driving is sometimes appalling as the cars are ridiculously fast, spoke to one guy in the heat who was a fairly new driver was running a 5.5, as thats what his mates told him to run. Wtf, I run a 7.5 in 4wd and thats quick enough. Another example is our resident batty boy Col, who has gone down to a 10.5 and is now going quicker.

johnboy 15-01-2013 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daz (Post 733135)
Bang on the money there Shane. Worst case is the first 4wd heat at York, the standard of driving is sometimes appalling as the cars are ridiculously fast, spoke to one guy in the heat who was a fairly new driver was running a 5.5, as thats what his mates told him to run. Wtf, I run a 7.5 in 4wd and thats quick enough. Another example is our resident batty boy Col, who has gone down to a 10.5 and is now going quicker.
There you go my point proven col using a 10.5 and going faster

daz 15-01-2013 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnboy (Post 733138)
There you go my point proven col using a 10.5 and going faster
To be fare tho mate, my son with his remote control Thomas the tanks engine train could go faster than Col :woot:

neallewis 15-01-2013 12:21 PM
Oh we all laughed at the car in the nuts, but it was painful for Chris and could have happened to any of us. I don't think it had anything to do with the motor spec and could have happened equally with a 17.5 or 13.5 motor.

The issue was how close the big jumps were to the "rostrum". A slight misjudgement in when to apply the power was the fault, but I maintain, if it wasn't so close to the rostrum, then it wouldn't have happened.

I run a 10.5 in my 2wd, and can make it as fast as a 6.5 down the straight with speedo timing advance, boost and gearing if i wish. At another smaller club I race at, I just turn down my throttle end point and generally go much faster than when I run at 100%.

Slower is faster to a point, and this was proven by Brett. I raced alongside him in the 4wd qualifiers, him with his saturn 20, me with a new 7.5 (in a new 4wd car only used once previously). Sure enough his was faster by being much more consistent, I had too much power for the slippy, so made errors and lost time, but felt it was fine on the carpet. He got in the A, me in the B finals. When he got there, it was totally out gunned.

I'm just a visitor to the club, rather than a paid up member, but I do enjoy your club and coming to the meetings when I can.

I agree with the sentiment of close competitive racing, but racers will always try to go faster to win no matter how it's limited, restricted, or managed.

johnboy 15-01-2013 12:35 PM
I agree that driver judgement comes into it but if a club was to enforce some rules ie blinky mode on esc which is easy to police then that helps Alittle. I'm not wanting to spoil any racing but sooner or later someone will get hurt quite bad by the speed of the cars in a hall of York size. Touch wood it ain't happened yet but never say never.

ericd2477 15-01-2013 12:47 PM
:thumbsup:Hi all, although I have never raced at your club I can understand the problems you are having because we have exactly the same problems at Ribble Valley in Leyland(Preston).
We had someone injured last week when a buggy became airborne and shot through a family of visitors at shoulder height then hit a member on the forearm - large bruise and gash.
The 1/10th buggies are too fast with just any motor in but what do we do ?

I think it is time to restrict motor sizes when indoors before someone gets seriously hurt.

Eric

footey 15-01-2013 01:04 PM
again same as 540 class { running brushed only } in this class just limit motors to say 10.5 SIMPLE and easty to police where blinky isnt

johnboy 15-01-2013 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by footey (Post 733163)
again same as 540 class { running brushed only } in this class just limit motors to say 10.5 SIMPLE and easty to police where blinky isnt
Blinky is easy to police Shane.

neallewis 15-01-2013 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by footey (Post 733163)
again same as 540 class { running brushed only } in this class just limit motors to say 10.5 SIMPLE and easty to police where blinky isnt
But I can make my 10.5 as fast as I want, faster than lower turn motors.
And I could still drive it at the "rostrum" off the jumps, and hit myself in the nuts if I wanted.

To me making it safer is about thinking about where the jumps are placed, marshal positions and ensuring drivers don't rev up when being marshalled.
Limiting motors or insisting on blinky doesn't make it safer.

Blinky is easy to police. Telling little Jonnys dad they can't race today because the bargain speedo and motor combo they bought isn't complaint with the rules is a different matter though. It just helps with pricing people out of a class/club.

I run blinky at other clubs in my supastox, but I've also seen the resistance to implementing it, when people have already invested in kit that isn't compliant with the rules.

footey 15-01-2013 01:37 PM
what happens if the escs your running dont have blinky and surley making cars slower is making it safer as for where the jumps are thats down the 2 or 3 people who build the track as all the others just sit there in the pits lol

Richard Lowe 15-01-2013 02:17 PM
I do agree with the position of the main 'feature' being close to the rostrum not being ideal, I usually put it there to make it easier for people to judge - especially for some of the younger members who don't have as high a vantage point as the rest of us big kids :bored:
We can try it toward the back of the track or even somewhere in the middle if people want next meeting, it would definitely help stop people trying to sterilise Chris!

Also I 110% agree with most of the cars people drive being over powered too. One of the things I noticed when I went to the US to race for the first time was the complete lack of vaguely guided missiles in the lower heats flying off in random directions, the American's do seem more disciplined than most UK club drivers in driving a car they can handle. For most people I think a 10.5 is a nice balance of being fast enough but still controllable, there are a couple of members who have recently switched their monster motors for 10.5's and are more than happy :)

You have to also look at the other side of the coin though, for the drivers that CAN handle big power having a 10.5 motor limit could be a real pain. Having to swap motors out every week would not only be annoying but constant soldering would eventually give internal dry joints on the motors and make them go bad sooner. Additionally (and this might just be me) but driving a 10.5, especially in 4wd would have me bored rigid. Yes you can add timing to the ESC that gets some of your top speed back but you lose torque, which just makes the car feel like you're running a badly matched set of nicad's and a cell or two has dumped :thumbdown:

It's a tough one...

Gray01 15-01-2013 04:04 PM
I am not suggesting anything needs to change as I am just a newbie who struggles with a 17.5 at the moment.

Now I am sure the more experienced will explain why his wouldn't work, but could instead of 540 /2wd mod / 4wd mod could you just a 'motor limit'?

For example you could have races 'up to' 17.5 / 10.5 / unlimited, irrespective of 2 or 4 wheel drive, yet still run the 2wd and 4wd classes within in these races and score accordingly. While your sharing the track (time) with cars in other classes, your not actually competing against them.

Kinda like full scale GT racing if that makes sense?

Would that work, or cause more problems that it would potentially solve?

G

Moss Models 15-01-2013 04:13 PM
Richard has hit the nail on the head. I couldn't be arsed to swap motors all the time.

Is there another way the kids could have a higher vantage point on the rostrum in order to see better? This would then open up the scope for the jumps in different areas. My son does have real trouble seeing all the track sometimes as they can be head height with everybody elses transmitter. Even I can't see all the track sometimes and I am 12 foot tall.

I think Neal was right about the jump but what caused problems was the stepped nature throwing the cars off line before hitting the jump, but it has to be a challange or it will be boring.

footey 15-01-2013 04:15 PM
mixing classes would make a lot more hassel as fast 4wds would be in with slower 2wds just wouldnt work

Moss Models 15-01-2013 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray01 (Post 733229)
I am not suggesting anything needs to change as I am just a newbie who struggles with a 17.5 at the moment.

Now I am sure the more experienced will explain why his wouldn't work, but could instead of 540 /2wd mod / 4wd mod could you just a 'motor limit'?

For example you could have races 'up to' 17.5 / 10.5 / unlimited, irrespective of 2 or 4 wheel drive, yet still run the 2wd and 4wd classes within in these races and score accordingly. While your sharing the track (time) with cars in other classes, your not actually competing against them.

Kinda like full scale GT racing if that makes sense?

Would that work, or cause more problems that it would potentially solve?

G
Good idea in theory but I think the 2WD people would get anoyed, unless your Rich Lowe who would still make us look silly:)

Gray01 15-01-2013 04:33 PM
It wouldn't matter though if Rich 'beat' your 2wd if he were driving a 4wd because even though your on the same track at the same time, your actually in a different race.

Now if Mr Lowe was constantly beating your 4wd with his 2wd *that* would get annoying, as well as being soul destroying:lol:

Seriously though I understand it wouldn't be ideal and it may be complicated to set up the system. Just a random thought....

G

robpearce255 15-01-2013 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Lowe (Post 733196)
I do agree with the position of the main 'feature' being close to the rostrum not being ideal, I usually put it there to make it easier for people to judge - especially for some of the younger members who don't have as high a vantage point as the rest of us big kids :bored:
We can try it toward the back of the track or even somewhere in the middle if people want next meeting, it would definitely help stop people trying to sterilise Chris!

Also I 110% agree with most of the cars people drive being over powered too. One of the things I noticed when I went to the US to race for the first time was the complete lack of vaguely guided missiles in the lower heats flying off in random directions, the American's do seem more disciplined than most UK club drivers in driving a car they can handle. For most people I think a 10.5 is a nice balance of being fast enough but still controllable, there are a couple of members who have recently switched their monster motors for 10.5's and are more than happy :)

You have to also look at the other side of the coin though, for the drivers that CAN handle big power having a 10.5 motor limit could be a real pain. Having to swap motors out every week would not only be annoying but constant soldering would eventually give internal dry joints on the motors and make them go bad sooner. Additionally (and this might just be me) but driving a 10.5, especially in 4wd would have me bored rigid. Yes you can add timing to the ESC that gets some of your top speed back but you lose torque, which just makes the car feel like you're running a badly matched set of nicad's and a cell or two has dumped :thumbdown:

It's a tough one...
I'll admit, when I set up the jump on saturday, it was a little close to the rostrum, maybe a bit too close. But there was still plenty of room to dismount the rostrum. I agree with Rich's point, we almost always do the jump there to provide the best view of it and the angle of your approach to the up ramp. I think judging the angle and position of the car approaching the jump would be very tricky with the jump at the other side of the hall to the rostrum, or in the middle of the track would obstruct the view of other parts of the hall, potentialy causing more incedents! It is very rare that anyone gets hit, it was just unfortunate that Jamie miss judged his angle after coming off the rippled section. I was in the same race and stood next to him as it happened in fact, luckily at the other side of him. The car actually hit Jamie himself, but unfortunately as he tried to kick it away from the rest of us, it spun in and caught chris in the nuts. The motor speed had nothing to do with it, it was the rippled run up. I setup the the jump to include a smooth down ramp and kick up off the end, which could easily be down ramped at reasonable, not excessive speeds. I disagree with any limiting to modified class, as it's been said before, it's down to the individual to realise they can go faster by having a slower motor and being more in control. Limiting the class would only spoil things for the top drivers, Rich actually cleared the jump a number of times safely to jump lapped cars.

johnboy 15-01-2013 05:25 PM
On the subject of jumps then why is it always a massive pointless jump the. The rest is touring car track. For Example Batley club do small
Jumps dotted around the track not a recreation of the alps. Big air is not always the way to go.

johnboy 15-01-2013 05:31 PM
On the subject of top drivers no offence to them but why cater for the few when making rules for the majority to have good racing. Watching the 2wd mod on sat would say only 2 of 3 of the 11 drivers were able to get round looking in control the rest well going round from one crash to another. Was the same in 4wd too

robpearce255 15-01-2013 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnboy (Post 733256)
On the subject of jumps then why is it always a massive pointless jump the. The rest is touring car track. For Example Batley club do small
Jumps dotted around the track not a recreation of the alps. Big air is not always the way to go.
Utter rubbish! It is not always a massive jump, we sometimes create it as a table top corner. And I also made use of the little ramps (the only others we have!) on another section of track to make things more interesting. The jump that night was about skill of catching the down ramp I put in mid jump, not big air! Rather than bleeting about it on oople why not have some positive input and come to help the very few of us that build the track and take it down every week!! I was the first through the door after mike, got my stuff in and had the jump half built by the time the next person walked in! To everyone at YORCC, please get down early, get your stuff ready then help with the track! If you're unsure what to do, just ask how you can help. If you have positive ideas for layout let us know and we'll include them where feasable. Also please help with packing away where possible (those with small children, or incapable of lifting are excused ofcourse) but there are a lot of racer that pack up and leave without a care for those that do all the packing away! Please help us!!

AC199 15-01-2013 06:40 PM
I can see the pro's and cons of all the ideas posted, but I'll draw your attention to one simple thing.

The committee.

Nothing has ever moved fast when it needs to be decided on by committee, and this will not be an exception... No matter what we think needs to be done, it will have to be decided on by the committe and they arent going to change anything.

Any changes to the way 540 works will mean that committee members have to drive in the mod class, and thats not going to happen...

Any changes to the motors allowed, means that there will be more classes to run, and that means we wont get through the races, either that or every single heat will be 10 man heats instead of just 2wd mod... Thats not going to happen...

Basically, you can come up with whatever ideas you want, but its not going to get past the committee as its worked for the last 20 years so why bother changing?

M2P

AC

johnboy 15-01-2013 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robpearce255 (Post 733282)
Utter rubbish! It is not always a massive jump, we sometimes create it as a table top corner. And I also made use of the little ramps (the only others we have!) on another section of track to make things more interesting. The jump that night was about skill of catching the down ramp I put in mid jump, not big air! Rather than bleeting about it on oople why not have some positive input and come to help the very few of us that build the track and take it down every week!! I was the first through the door after mike, got my stuff in and had the jump half built by the time the next person walked in! To everyone at YORCC, please get down early, get your stuff ready then help with the track! If you're unsure what to do, just ask how you can help. If you have positive ideas for layout let us know and we'll include them where feasable. Also please help with packing away where possible (those with small children, or incapable of lifting are excused ofcourse) but there are a lot of racer that pack up and leave without a care for those that do all the packing away! Please help us!!
Fella over the years I've done my fair share of track building at the club. I remember times it only ever only being 2 or 3 people building the track so don't even go down the well help out route and also I told you sat night that jump was crap. This thread has gone off subject about speeds of modified.

Richard Lowe 15-01-2013 06:55 PM
I thought the jump was really good! It was easy to dribble over safely for the less experienced racers, but if you wanted to get over it quickly it needed a little bit of talent to land in the middle on the downslope and give it a squirt to jump out. It was only the odd nutcase (hello :D ) that was able to clear the whole thing :)

paulc 15-01-2013 07:01 PM
All this said it's up to the York committee to decide what to do about slowing the cars down without pissing to many people off if they have to buy new stuff im guessing this won't happen till the next agm whenever that is

robpearce255 15-01-2013 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC199 (Post 733287)
I can see the pro's and cons of all the ideas posted, but I'll draw your attention to one simple thing.

The committee.

Nothing has ever moved fast when it needs to be decided on by committee, and this will not be an exception... No matter what we think needs to be done, it will have to be decided on by the committe and they arent going to change anything.

Any changes to the way 540 works will mean that committee members have to drive in the mod class, and thats not going to happen...

Any changes to the motors allowed, means that there will be more classes to run, and that means we wont get through the races, either that or every single heat will be 10 man heats instead of just 2wd mod... Thats not going to happen...

Basically, you can come up with whatever ideas you want, but its not going to get past the committee as its worked for the last 20 years so why bother changing?

M2P

AC
I agree, it probably won't get past the committe, because things do work fine as they are! It was simply a 'racing incedent' that unfortunately caught you in the bollocks, a one off accendent that was dealt with on the night with a shake of hands between you and jamie, and laugh it off. There are committee members that do mod already actually, Jerry and myself are both on the committee so any further problems/ideas can be reported to us. As far as I can see though this is over and done with now, no changes required, simple as that.

johnboy 15-01-2013 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robpearce255 (Post 733302)
I agree, it probably won't get past the committe, because things do work fine as they are! It was simply a 'racing incedent' that unfortunately caught you in the bollocks, a one off accendent that was dealt with on the night with a shake of hands between you and jamie, and laugh it off. There are committee members that do mod already actually, Jerry and myself are both on the committee so any further problems/ideas can be reported to us. As far as I can see though this is over and done with now, no changes required, simple as that.
Sorry but your deluded. Wait till someone gets hurt then say nothing needs changing.

paulc 15-01-2013 07:13 PM
Totally agree with that John but it seem what your saying is falling on deaf ears with some of the committee

And Rich your not to bad at controlling toy cars !! if all the people who race there tryed to clear the jump in one go it might not end with quite the same result and people will get hurt at some point

AC199 15-01-2013 07:18 PM
I did get hurt. Nothing needs changing cos its a freak accident, and the first one i've seen in 15 months racing, indoors and outdoors...

paulc 15-01-2013 07:21 PM
What happens if somone gets hit in the head then will any thing get changed ?

robpearce255 15-01-2013 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnboy (Post 733304)
Sorry but your deluded. Wait till someone gets hurt then say nothing needs changing.
In regards to that the main thing I want to get changed is the marshalling situation. I went to batley the other week and noticed the kids only marshall if they're with an adult at the marshall point. They're the ones most at risk of getting hurt so I believe we should opperate the same policy. Most accidents to us big kids can be rubbed better easy enough certainly with use only doing 1:10 electric. The most risky area is the straight, and with Jerry's drivers breifings things are already getting better, advice on not bumping but being patient to overtake or lap, calling lapping and also calling car on the straight. This has reduced high speed incedents, the use of carpet rolls and foam does the job of catching most of the out of control cars. I saw on another club section earlier, they were talking about the same poblem and suggested netting. Maybe we could use the orange netting we have normally only used on big evens, strung between the 2 mat trollies to catch out of control cars.

robpearce255 15-01-2013 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC199 (Post 733310)
I did get hurt. Nothing needs changing...
EXACTLY!!!! Like I just said! Us big kids can rub things better! A little plastic car isn't going to break my leg, it'd smash to pieces before it would! 1:8th scale have this to worry about, not us!

johnboy 15-01-2013 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robpearce255 (Post 733316)
EXACTLY!!!! Like I just said! Us big kids can rub things better! A little plastic car isn't going to break my leg, it'd smash to pieces before it would! 1:8th scale have this to worry about, not us!
What a stupid comment

robpearce255 15-01-2013 07:46 PM
There has only been one injury I remember in years! That was only because mike(or maybe ben, I can't remember exactly) rilley stepped on my brother's car while marshalling and did his ancle in as he slipped over.

racingdwarf 15-01-2013 07:57 PM
Interesting reading this, I don't race at your club, but do run a club now and also been involved in quite a few over the past years. The thing that has changed enormously in only the last few years in tenth is lipo and brushless, not that long ago it was much harder to get a car to go seriously fast and last 5min, but now anyone can get a 4wd to go at speeds that tbh a tenth car just can't handle, add to this mini pins and carpet and an enclosed space and things are going to happen!
Now in the world of 8th we have had to consider marshal safety when building tracks, most of all the jump sections for quite some time.This is something 10th is going to have to consider more now the cars are getting faster, i have raced at some indoor meetings in the last couple of years that give no consideration to marshals at all, and in many cases marshals are under attack from many directions with nothing but a chair for cover:lol:
I think the problem you had is quite simple, the jump was in the wrong place!

I think I kinda aree with richard also, If things are getting to fast, slow the track down,polished floor, ripple sections etc, make people slow down.But having run clubs this I realise this comes with a problem, most racers only enjoy their meeting if they can go flat out all the time, if you make them slacken the slipper off, change the profile, or even need to reach in the box for a far slower motor they don't come racing anymore!

paulc 15-01-2013 07:58 PM
Thats ok then if there's been one accident allready there won't be anymore

Like i said in a previous post it's up to the committee if they want to do anything about the speed of the cars.....


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