Before the AGM, a State of the Nation/club debate.
 

Hi All,

With the AGM coming soon I wanted to share with you all a discussion I had this morning regarding changes to the buggy class and possibly the club in general.

I am apposed to the thoughts and comments I was hearing and my reasons for this will surprise some of you who've known me for a while.

The general gist of the conversation was about trying to make Ribble Valley into a more off road style buggy club with more slippery sections, rumble strips and possibly larger jumps. It was also mooted we pit in the other hall and carpet all the existing hall to create two tracks, one for off road and one for the GT12's. We all should run rubber tyres and raise the ride height to 10-12mm which you'd have to anyway with the changes to the track. We also threw around the idea of single class racing, either be a 2wd only or 4wd only club, along with a motor limit. I must confess the last two ideas I raised as they would logically follow the other suggestions.

What was said to be the driving force behind all this need for change was the wish to get a level playing field, get closer racing and reduce costs, and believe me we had some funny debate over whats affordable and what isn't:D.

Now I'll tell you why I think all this is completely wrong. Finally, after a few weeks of bringing my young lad and talking to other lads and dads, I get it. It took me a good many years but finally I now understand. Ribble Valley is a fun club, the strap line is racing for fun and its spot on.

This club is not for the fast racers who want nose to tail action for 5 minutes. I'm not decrying it at all, I think it does well and really enjoyed racing last week catering for the faster guys but its aimed at fun on a Friday night with your family and mates. These changes will take the club backwards. We have close racing now, we have cheap racing now. All the goals of our discussions are either wrong for the club or have already been achieved.

Thinking about the history of this club, the transformation from the days at Westview, then Fulwood to what its become now is unbelievable. The club has been racing for well over 20 years so many of the new ideas are old ideas and have been tried and assessed in the past. The good ones kept and the bad ones scrapped and this is whats brought us to where we are now. For example in the days of Fulwood, we raced touring cars and it was decided we enforce a motor limit. For all the same reasons, lower cost, closer racing etc. All it meant was all the members had to buy new motors and the fast guys did all they could to get the max performance. The results stayed the same, all we did was increase cost so it was scrapped. When we came to the current venue, we raced buggies on rubber and to be competitive you needed a new set every week which cost a fortune. We had bigger jumps but still people had cars on the deck and when I stopped coming, due to tyre cost, people started putting additive on mini pins to look to save an extra tenth of a second. Now its evolved to foams its great, about 15 quid for a set and they'll last a good couple of months.

The up shot of all this rambling is the committee should be congratulated for agreeing a plan, sticking to it and creating and developing a very successful club and format. It works as its is. From the automated booking in, the different practice for varying abilities, pretty much everything from the tuck shop to the foams to the 4 minute heats is right and works. I do have to hold my hand up and admit in the past I was pushing the committee to be more race minded but they held firm and were right to do so.

Its also worth remembering we've had this discussion about creating a race car club before. In fact one of the former racers felt so strongly the club should change direction he created not one but two clubs to attract the racers. The first was on a Saturday so no clash but numbers we're very low. He questioned people as to why and got told it has to be on a Friday night. So he tried again on a Friday and got the same result. So its been demonstrated, people want a racing for fun club, with good racing, yes sure, but they don't want a Southport, Chadderton or Worksop style. They don't want RVRCCC to be messed with to make it a racers club either. Or so I believe having talked to people over the past few weeks.

I'm looking forward to bringing my lad to race in the near future, or crash round the track as it will be for at least the first couple of months but at this club that's fine. Nathan and the other kids are the target market, not the A finalists. In fact this debate shouldn't concern me as a racer because when Nathan starts I'll be pitting for him (read, pitting as repairing his car every heat!) and trying to bring him on instead of racing myself.

I posted this to get the views of others, to start people thinking and see what the general thoughts are. These and other proposals I've been told will be made at the AGM so its a good discussion to have. You've got my 2 pence, its working very well, its certainly ain't broke so don't mess with it.

Please discuss.

The discussion came about via several racers, not wanting to change how the club is, ie to a pure buggy/racer club but as far as the buggies go more off road content not running them as touring cars. Yes there would could be an increase in running costs with tyres, this could be helped with a control tyre to a degree. At the end of the day they are off road cars and everyone asked across a range of driver abilities agrees with it (apart from 1). No one is saying the committee has done wrong or a bad job running things, and it is run well. Cars are getting faster and one thing that is definitely needed is a longer and wider track.

Firstly, full agree with Steve, nobody is or was saying the committee has done anything but good work however people are saying change is needed and the point I'm making is no it isn't.

We shouldn't want to raise the costs, I think that's just daft when we have something that works so well and so cheaply. Secondly, yes we race off road cars but we race them in an on road environment. People set up their cars to the conditions. No different to any other club. I can't see an issue.

Lastly, I disagree with the comment the track needs to be longer and wider. I'm sure the A final would love all those changes but this club isn't for those people. Its for the rest of the people who want to come and have a bit of fun with their toy cars on a Friday night.

I agree with what your saying however if it's tight and twisty it's hard for beginners, and its hard to pass at the top end as well, the last track had a 2.5m wide straight and it was far better

Good point Steve, tight and twisty can be tricky for a beginner. So we don't need track size, tyre, motor and car changes, all we need is a redesigned track?

If its still the same process as when I used to race, am I right in saying the track design is changed every 8 week series anyway? So job done?

The problem is there isn't enough carpet to make the track consistently wider

I would say that the buggies should all be running rubber not foams - they are designed to run that way. The track can be improved with better ramps, a table top with underpass for the mardaves, and rumbled bits where the sheet is to test the suspension etc. Southport have that bit done really well. If it's a fun night then I don't see a need for foams. Keep it simple with Schumacher mini pins/spikes so all run the same. Foams isn't what they were designed for. My nephew can't be going out for foams etc. Let's just keep it simple and run tyres - seems logical

And before the foams came in there it was fairer and more FUN. Seems like foams have divided everyone into the haves and have nots.

Sorry, I can't address you by name, I'm not sure who you are but I don't understand the haves and have nots idea. How can you stop people running new tyres every week which is what happened in the past? Surely thats haves and have nots.

The foams are simple to order direct from Schumacher, cost less than a set of the tyres your suggesting and last meeting after meeting. If we go back to rubber, racing will cost more. How does that benefit your nephew? I'm also interested, when we did race rubber, how was it more fun?

I'll also give you another reason why foams are good for RVRCCC. If a rubber tyred car leaves the track and keeps driving, there's a good chance it'll damage the floor. A foam car wouldn't.

We also need to get away from arguing what these cars were designed for. They were designed to race and that's what we're doing with them.

You do make a good point about Southport doing a good job, they do and its a great club for racers but again that isn't the point of RVRCCC. Its about fun. What you're talking about is making changes to benefit racers.

Its interesting though you've mentioned Southport. (Is your nephew booked in for Turf wars on Sunday at Southport because this is relevant if he is?) Its interesting because their members had the same issues Ribble had. High wear rates and high costs to stay competitive. They wanted to lower the cost of tyres. Pins or spikes both give good grip but wore out easily in one meeting. So they've all gone to running the old Schumacher blocks. They modify the tyre or the wheel to make them fit properly and they've solved the problem. (You could also argue our buggies aren't designed to run those tyres as our wheels are 2.2 not 2.0.but no ones looking to change that.)

Great grip and tyres now last about 4 meetings but its unlikely they'll use them elsewhere. They evolved exactly as Ribble has. They all think its great. So looking at your example of Southport, why would we want to do as they have in finding a better solution, then go back to why we found the solution in the first place?

FYI these old Schumacher blocks are infact new, if his nephew is a beginner then rubbers will be cheaper as A: he won't be fast enough to wear them and B:he won't chunk them to death. On my lads car he had 2 pairs of rear rubber tyres in about 6 months running at ribble and blackpool

I am going to chuck into this. :lol:

We must remember ribble is racing for fun, main aim and top of the list.

Ok, looking around the pits all or most the junior drivers currently run rubber tyres, so a change in that direction won't change anything really.
If a control tyre is introduced then there defiantly needs to be something to stop New tyres every heat or round, maybe same set for each half championship?

Also I think any increase in track size is better for any driver of any ability and alot more fun.

Only problem with a control tyre is if someone turns up for a 1st time with kit tyres, then these people should be allowed to race for upto 3weeks maybe or just don't score championship rounds while running non regulation tyres.

Ride hight is one of the things that should be raised and enforced, with or without control tyres.

These are my opinions
:)

Steve, Yes the blocks are new but they come out of the old molds, they are still a 2.0, not a 2.2 and most people cut them to ensure a good fit.

Ah ok, i assumed they were a new mould as well, I stand corrected

Matt is right about the bottom end not being affected but the mid field will be, they'll be going quick enough to wear mini pins so it isn't fun after a week and a half.

I don't know how you could police tyres either, your getting into the need to scrutineer the cars so surely that's another reason to leave it alone.

Who says it has too be a control tyre for buggys , we run 1/10th offroad buggys so just state that they should run comercially available buggy tyres ??!!??!!??!!this would also slow the cars down stop them sliding so much and cut down on damage too the track sections ?!?!?!

I've just been looking at older threads to see if this has come up before and I found this one talking about more jumps.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131740

Seems to cover very similar ground and Matt, you made the statement you couldn't afford to go back after running foams.

The control tyre was a suggestion to control cost as there is a mini pin style tyre available and cheaper than Schumacher. Just waiting on a price

Two more thread stating how good foams are and how they reduce cost.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129195

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124690

Then I found the debate where this all started at start of last year. Seems to me, the foams issue at least, has been discussed and decided already.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119914

Wayne, the foams are commercially available and I don't get why you don't like them so much.

The issue if the club went back to rubber is how do you stop a competitive racer using a new set every run. I saw a racer trying to make the A final at the last turf wars use 3 sets of tyres.

What stops that person doing the same at Ribble? And where does it leave everyone else. If you're going to introduce rules to stop it who controls it?

The club is working well and has had this discussion before. Most people like foams and appreciate their benefits.

Again I ask, why change whats working so well?

As I have said before cost is the issue for me. And that is what I have said above.
I think it's right there is open conversation and challenge to the rules as things change and progress overtime. Imagine if the rules never changed we wouldn't have Lipo and brushless motors and the cost saving they give.

I like foams and believe they are cheaper to run every week, but am open to discussion if it works out to be better for the club.

Bigger track will always get my personal vote, and I agree with the principle of raised ride height.

I think there should be rules about not standing with your hands in your pockets when marshalling, how many people are guilty of that I wonder and what final they normally make? :p

More jumps
 

Wider track means easier for less experienced and also easier to overtake/let past for the more competitive.

More jumps means more fun for all drivers of all abilities (just ask the young ones and old codgers)

Never mind all the rest

Nuf said

No replies thanks just making my point

Ok my turn!

If your a club member, your membership gives you the right to voice your thoughts and opinions on all aspects of the club. In my opinion, from what I have read, there are alot of valid and not so valid points been raised. I have been racing at the club almost on a weekly basis for the past four years, and have been racing in general for almost 27 years, at many different clubs and in many different classes. I'm not going to go over what everyone has said, but will just list my points and thoughts.

The Track: The system of the track now in the way it can be raced on by both on road and off road cars, with just a change of moving a barrier is good and it works! The problem I see is that the club is growing in numbers all the time! and the track is becoming to small for the number of cars in a heat, so if there is a way of having more carpet down and a bigger track, this will make it better for all, over taking, easier to get round with new drivers, and we would hopefully see alot less car breakages! As at the moment there are far to many cars getting broken because of the high speed, and the number of cars trying to get round on to tight of a track. Having a bigger track will also allow the use of more jumps, rumble strips etc, for the buggies, and that is what buggies are made for, and that's what make them so much fun! Everyone from the beginners, Anna and Arron right up to my level, buy and race buggies because we all love jumping and driving them on varying 'off road' surfaces. That's where the challenge and real enjoyment comes from racing a buggy!

Tyres, Foam: There are both good and bad points to both foams and rubber tyres. Yes, in terms of cost, foams 'will' last longer and you will get more race meetings out of them, 'BUT' foams are also easily ripped or chunked, and most times when that happens they are only good for the bin! 'FACT' Foams are faster on the track, you get the amount of grip you want by the amount of additive you put on them, and this makes general car setup not as important.

Rubber tyres: Rubber tyres make racing closer across all levels, they are slower around the track! This is because you get the right balance of grip through car setup 'you can drive a poorly setup car fast on foams but you can't on rubbers'. Yes you get less meetings out of rubbers, but for the beginner to mid level drivers, they don't have to worry about ripping or chunking them, and there skill level is often not good enough to make the most out of 'new' tyres, in fact, in most cases, new tyres give to much grip for them. As for ware rate, Anna and Arron had a new set of rubber tyres in October, they are still on the same set and they still get round the track at a good pace for there level! If your a good race level driver, you will ware out both rubber and foam tyres faster! and if you want to compete you need to have good 'new' tyres on your car be it foam or rubber! I know I can send Arron and Anna out to race, they crash and get crashed into, and I don't have to worry about the cost of having to replace foam tyres on there cars or tell them there night is over coz they have no tyres to race on!

Buggy- Mardave - Touring car: What is the class you are racing?? It's very simple, if your racing buggies, then the car should be set up as a buggy! If I 'Know' I can go faster on the track by changing my cars shocks and suspension on my buggy to be more like a touring car, is it right to say 'I'm just setting up my car for the track conditions'? If that's the case, Am I equally ok to think 'I know I can go faster than a buggy set up like a touring car, 'IF' I race a touring car with a buggy shell on it? What if I turn up with a 1/12th circuit car and race it against the Mardaves? There both onroad cars right? and they both look similar to each other. When I book in to the club on line, I am booking in to race in the 'Buggy' class. If I raced Mardaves I would book in to race Mardaves! Buggies should be ran as Buggies, this means the car should be within the limits of ride height, shock travel and all the basic guiding outlines that state what a '1/10th off road Buggy class' should be! If I want to run my 'Buggy' as a touring car, then I should go out and buy a touring car and race it with other touring cars! I race my car at other tracks, not just Layland, So now if I want to compete at Layland, I need to buy a full second set of shocks to set my car up with very little shock travel and set it sat on the deck! I can't keep taking apart the shocks on the car and putting them back to full travel for other tracks, as this would ware out the shocks and would end up costing more money to keep buying more shock oil to refill the shocks! So I would have to buy a second set of shocks. Now, the guy who is trying to keep pace with me, see's how much faster I am going with my tour car set up, and then realizes that if he wants to keep up with me he has to do the same! And then the guy who is trying to keep up with him, you get the point. There has to be a basic set of rule for each class, because if there isn't, where does it end? At some point, someone will turn up with a touring car with a buggy shell fitted and race it in the 'Buggy' class.

Fun club or Race club: The fact is, times move on, and so as the club. It is no longer just a beginners family fun club. the club is now made up of equal numbers of beginners, Ribble Vally regulars and good level racers that race at numerous other clubs! The club can no longer just cater for the the beginner family fun group. It has to look at everyone, and look at how thing can be changed for the benefit of all who race there. I go there with my family and we go there to 'race' and have fun! But, the club is growing, 'which is a good thing' but there are now that many cars on the track, with as much horse power as they can buy, going to fast, on a over crowded, tight track, this is leading to cars being smashed up far to much! I spend more time fixing broken cars than I do getting them on the race track, and I'm not the only one! over the past number of weeks, you would loose count of how many cars are getting broken, due to the way things are! I don't believe the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' point at this time. Because cars are getting broke, on an ever increasing rate! And I don't see how this is meant to be 'cost effective fun' for the parents who have to keep spending to repair there kids cars every week.

Morning Mark,

I enjoyed reading your post, some good thoughts and comments. A lot of it I can agreed with if we are going to have change, the increase in track size for example would be good if it leads to less breakages and possibly more features. I do think it would give rise to different problems, space for pitting, time to build the track and put it away and the time required to race everyone and the extra people who'd come because of the different track.

Where we have differing views is on the tyres and car set up.

Foams, I agree, can and do get chunked. But because there foam they can also be repaired very easily. OK you might not want to do it on a Friday night because the tyre needs to be trued up again but it means next week your tyres are back to full width and it didn't cost anything. With Rubber tyres "the" problem is how do you stop someone running a new set every week, or even every run? As you said you need to be on new tyres to be competitive. So as this Friday is my 3rd week back I'll have saved £50 ish on wheels, tyres and inserts by running my foams for the 3rd time. Even if I concede I reuse wheels and inserts its still around £30. I can't understand why anyone would want to return to rubber, we used to race rubber and that is exactly what happened, new boots every week, which is why I stopped racing at Ribble.

The car set up argument I also question. In answer to your comment, what stops someone racing a touring car with a buggy shell, the answer is simple, the RVRCCC construction rules.

http://www.rvrccc.co.uk/construction...gy-build-rules

The first thing it states, "Any commercially available 2WD or 4WD 1/10 scale Buggy Kit." A touring car kit isn't a buggy kit so can't be used. So hopefully we can agree on that can't happen so that's put to bed.

Lets think about sets ups. Your car at Southport on Sunday will be set up for the high grip conditions, I know you've worked on that set up to get your car working as well as it can and it does look dialled round the track. However, I'm also sure if you went to a slippy track the weekend after you'd make changes to dial your car to that track so I don't understand why your upset about people tuning their car to what is basically an on road environment at Ribble.

I think you're going to see more cars lower this week, I told a good few people last week how to achieve it. A couple of spacers under the pistons, thicker oil and stiffer springs. If you think about it all we're doing is reducing the droop whilst maintaining the min 5mm ride height.

The last thing I'd query is if an on road style set up is bad what about all the other technology from that section of our hobby. Using boost on speedos isn't at all common in off road because cars typically have more power than grip and just as in touring cars, because of boosting motor speed, we're having to pre-cool the motor to stop the car shutting down mid run. So purchasing a 50 quid piece of technology to get a speed advantage is fine but to achieve better handling a £3 pack of spacers and some fuel tube isn't?

But look, lets leave all this one side. This is all aimed at the sharp end of the racing and Ribble isn't aimed at you and I. Its aimed at Anna, Arron and Nathan to develop in racing with the emphasis on fun. It doesn't matter what daft ideas we dream up to give us an extra 10th, what matters is the people for whom Ribble is their only place to race and experience this hobby. We shouldn't add rules which complicate things, affects everyone and burdens the people running to meeting to enforce.

It comes down to choice. If you want to run foams, boost your motor or put spacers in your shocks, great do it, if you don't, then don't. All we do need to do is have fun on a Friday and leave the serious stuff to Sunday.

Andy, I never said that I thought Foams are a bad idea. I just pointed out the good and bad points regarding foams and rubber tyres. Both for the beginner through to the pro drivers. One thing you have to remember is that not many if any people have a tyre truing machine. So when a set of tyres are damaged not everyone has either the knowledge or the equipment to repair the tyre, and as I said, If I put Arron and Anna on foams, as and when they rip or chunk them 'And they will', I would then have to tell them there race night is over for that week! until I can repair the tyre 'That being that I could'. The only way around that is to have two to three sets glued up ready for them, and then that makes the running cost silly. There is nothing to stop someone putting a new set of tyres on every run, and that has been the case for as long as I have been racing! And unless there is a tyre restriction of some sort, people will put new tyres on there cars, in reflection to how deep there pockets are! And that unfortunately is Racing! In any class Toy car or Real.

My car setup for southport, Chadderton, Bury and Ribble is setup within the limits of the cars adjust ability and what the car is designed to do. If I take my 8th rally cross to a blown out bumpy as hell track, and that track is more of 'Truggy Environment' That does not make it right that I then add truggy wish bones driveshafts and wheels to make my car more suitable to the track conditions. It goes against the 'spirit' of Off Road 8th Buggy racing. And the same applies to 1/10th 'Off Road Buggys'. As I also said, It is not just as simple as putting fuel tubing or spaces in the shocks. Many of the racers that race at Ribble also race at other clubs, and do not have two sets of shocks to setup. for those that only have the shocks that are on there cars, they are going to have to keep stripping down the shocks re build them with more oil, every weekend. That is an extra cost on top of what is already an expensive hobby. Yes I tune 'setup' my Buggy to the track conditions, But my Buggy is still 'Off Road' even in an 'OnRoad Environment'. I am not changing the suspension of an 'Off Road car' to an 'On Road car'.

The majority of racers at Ribble now are Buggy racers, and if you talk to most, they all want to race on a track that is more 'Off Road' than on road, That's what the 'FUN' is in Buggy Racing. The best thing about Ribble is that they have got very good at building a track layout that both the on road and off road cars can race on, with just a movement of a barrier. At the end of the day, we are racing buggies! and that is how we should be racing them. We should not be setting them up as touring cars and calling them 'Buggy Class'. Its an off road car NOT an On Road car.

The advancement in electrics 'Boost-Turbo speedo's etc' faster servos more powerful batteries, has not ever been within just one class of racing. the power you get, and how it works is a personal thing, some like turbo some don't! and that applies across all classes, unless it is restricted eg 'Blinky'. As is the case when it comes to tyres, how much power you can get out of your car reflects on how much you are able to spend on the better equipment. Your comment of ' Using boost on speedos isn't at all common in off road because cars typically have more power than grip', well I think you will find it's more Common than you think, I have been using turbo in my buggies since it started as a feature in speedo's, and many many off road racers have. Its just another way of adding speed to your car, in the same way as going from a 3 port rtr engine to a 3 port OS Speed, you buy the amount of power you want in your car! But no matter what or how much power you have in your car, the car is still either Off Road Or On Road.

Yes you are absolutely right when it comes to the fact that the club is about having fun! But, when Arron and Anna ask me why they can't keep up 'xyz' driver all of a sudden, when every week they have good close races with them, I have to tell them, that's because they have now got foam tyres and have limited there cars suspension to be like a touring car. I now have to buy two full sets of shocks and foam tyres for there cars, because if I don't they can't keep up with the same level of drivers that they are. Then they get frustrated and stop having 'Fun'. Everyone wants to win and finish as high up as they can, even the kid that come to race for the first time! Thats why they come to 'Race!' if all they wanted to do was drive there cars around, they can do that anywhere.

Mark, as always, great post.

I can't argue with anything at all in paragraph 1, and 5 to a point.

Paragraph 2, We're not using parts from other cars as in your example, its still all B44.2, its just adapted to its racing environment. People change oil many times at race meetings chasing set ups, I don't see a difference.

I know how many spacers to add and remove so its takes minutes to do. Just the same as if you were changing droop or a piston.

The boost in buggies, I thought people just motored up, seems I might be missing a trick so I'll try that but your right in what you say I've never really like the feel of boost.

Good debate so I'll add more when I return but for now would it help you if you thought of it as setting them up as we did in the early 90's before touring car existed!:D Pro-Cats for the Win.

:lol:Hi All, just a few comments from me about the points made so far :-
THE TRACK - The committee has looked at ways of making the track larger and to add an extra width of carpet we would have to restrict the number of racers to about 50. Last week we had 61.
We have had numerous suggestions on how to change the track and we have invited people to assist our Track designer by building features but no one has volunteered. Storage of additional carpet and new features is also an issue because we have a limited space available.

THE TIRES - The committee has always had an open mind on Tires for Buggies and we have left this decision to the MAJORITY of buggy racers. It was a proposal at last years AGM from a buggy driver that we allow foams to be used and it was voted on and passed. If anyone wants to change this they can propose it for the AGM and it can be voted on again.

NUMBERS ON TRACK - We are currently in our peak period as a lot of out door people come in doors and new racers appear with Christmas presents. Our Total number of racers can fluctuate between 25 and 70 !!!
We can reduce the numbers on tack in one of 2 ways :-
1) Restrict overall numbers say 40 Buggies and 16 GT12.
2) Change the Race format to 2 heats and 1 Final with 6 minute heats/finals.

THE COMMITTEE - We do not like to turn anyone away especially youngsters and anyone who has traveled a long way. We do our best but it is a members club and YOU the members make the rules.

Personally I wouldn't do 6 minute heats due to motor temps and charging times, it would be a better idea to scrap practice instead and add another heat or 2

Ribble Club Racing
 

Having started at Wellfield, Ribble has managed to continue as a thriving Rc club when quite a few other clubs disappeared. I feel the main reason is they do cater for a broad range of drivers/abilities and maintain a friendly and welcoming venue for all, especially newcomers and youngsters. Quite a high percentage of juniors with mainly dads/mums funding the fun.

Always a balancing act to satisfy everyone but the "serious" racer can go to clubs/regional/national meetings that cater for their racing wants . Ribble do a good job with varying the track to suit on and off road racing and a racing series mixed with fun/practice meetings to balance. Fun/Pleasure is what the members come for week after week.

I've seen racers trash sets of mini pins at a single meeting, foams offer high grip and lower running costs for buggies given they can last a lot longer and as Andy says they are repairable if damaged.

Buggies are in the majority but GT12 has a place with regular attendance and I don't feel it should be pushed to the back so to speak when it comes to any decisions.

As Eric says numbers racing is limited to a maximum, but most nights manage to let all who have attended to race - Pre-booking will help guarantee a place. Pre Race-Practice, Three heats and a Final is the best balance IMHO

It should be said that the efforts of the committee and the volunteers on race control/refreshments (Thank you Ladies :wub) are what keep the wheels turning so we can all enjoy :D

:lol:Practice only happens because most weeks we have a gap between the Track being completed and booking in closing at 7:15. We start racing at 7:30 which is in our experience the earliest practical time to start as people who work need time to get there. So we are into the total number of races that can be held ? Currently we try to run 5 buggy and either 1 or 2 GT12 racing 4 mins each. This give a max Race time of 2hrs 54 minutes. This takes us to 10:30 with extra time for setting up the finals. Bearing in mind we shold be locking up at 10:30 we are already running late. We have looked at this issue time and time again and there are only two answers - Cut Numbers or cut rounds.

I've just done 5 meeting on 1 set of mini pins, fronts are still only half worn, but rear are done need replacing now but that's mine running quite quick,
What about the damage to the track, people running foams are slamming into the guttering, a lot of people use as a aid to get round,

in my opinion running rubber tyres the car speed = person's ability
but on foams speed is more than some people's ability, but that's how I see it

No one here is pushing gt12 to the back here this is just something a few buggy racers have been talking about, these areas we are discussing would have no impact on gt12 unless people were to move away and race a buggy instead.

I.dont see cutting rounds as an option, I wouldn't want to pay £10 for me and connor to race 2 rounds and a final. Things can be streamlined to claw back a few minutes here and there

Love the open banter :)

From cost point I dont think that you can ever really justify that rubber tyres will be cheaper to run than foams (Agree if your lucks out you can trash a brand new set).

I really agree with both sides of the arguments on this but if it came to voting I personally would go along the lines of keeping foams, raising ride height and having a good time :lol:

As Matt said some good discussion around this so all comments welcome. Maybe you've thought of an angle which hasn't been mentioned yet so please get posting. All opinions respected.

The only question I'd throw back in the melting pot is if we keep foams, and to be honest looking at the comments on the threads I posted last night I really think we will, and propose to raise the ride height, what would we raise it too? My car is set to 7mm, with bump stops (just fuel tube on the shafts to stop) at 5mm, and its slightly above drive shafts level. Remember the overall diameter of foams is smaller than rubber so what ride height would we think is acceptable?

Also a few comments. Firstly following on with ride height and the comments I heard from race control about carpet damage. It isn't enough just to drop the ride height and think job done. I think the problem we're seeing is cars are above 5mm at rest but can bottom out in a dynamic situation which causes the damage. From that does it mean we should have a minimum ride height which the car physically can't fall under?

The second comment is about repairing chunked foams. Mark made a good point early most people probably don't have a machine to do it. Fair and valid, but I'll bet most people have a drill, a small piece of wood and some sand paper. When I started racing 12th I didn't have a machine so what most people did was get a bolt the same diameter as the axle, clamp the wheel with a nut and washer and put that in a drill. You can put the drill in a workmate or even get someone to hold it. Then put the sand paper on the wood and true the tyre.

Lastly, this is starting to look like a discussion about the sharp end. We need to ensure it isn't by not worrying about the A final but rather the club as a whole. The chap who commented about GT12 not getting pushed to the back is right, would a larger track suit that class? I don't know the answer, but I think we should try to keep this relevant to all in the hope that as many Friday night competitors contribute as possible. Any rule changes will, directly or indirectly, affect everyone.

Well personally I think the club does a great job ribble is about fun an weather it's foams or pins doesn't bother me I have been running both over the last few months. I think it just needs a couple more jumps/rumble strips an this w ould slow drivers down. All this crap talk happens every year round the time of the agm :p:lol::lol::lol:

Wow, some great responses which tell me something, people feel passionate about RVRCCC.

I have been racing at Leyland on and off for the last few years and love it. I take it for what it is, a fun club. That is why I have been bring my eldest, so that he can have fun. I like to try to be competitive but with a budget (my car and Olivers) and knowing my own abilities, i know my limits and aim for realistic finals (C or even B).

As others have already stated, the club has a great feel and attracts both new and seasoned racers. The increase in 'regulars' reflects the hard work that all at the club put in (especially Eric and Pete). I think we all race at Leyland with the acceptance that the track is what it is. If we wanted a track built for buggies, with lots of jumps, crossovers, rough surfaces etc designed for buggies, then we should choose a club/track more suited for that. The fact is Leyland is what it is and is a great venue.

Regarding crashing, this is always going to happen. Those in the A and B finals should have no excuses as in most cases they should be able to drive without either causing a smash, or being able to avoid the crash. The loud smashes tend to come from those racers in the C/D finals, who maybe are driving cars too fast for their abilities? This is always going to happen when we get the 'need for speed'. The starters/novices in the lower heats/finals will always break wishbones and the dads/pitmans should just accept it. We all were there when we were kids.

Regarding foams, I have just been converted to foams rather than using minipins. It was purely down to money and not being able to afford new pins on a regular basis. They are nothing new, I raced foams week in week out 20 years ago on carpet. Last Friday my first race was a wow experience. I had forgotten how much extra grip they gave the car. Once i get used to turning in later etc I am sure my lap times will come down. Foams do not make you go faster on the straights, just round the bends/corners. Surely if more people are using foams, racing should be tidier with less cars flipping over the track markers into other cars or drifting wide round bends into other cars. So surely no one should be concerned by the quantity of cars running them.

Regarding carpet/floor damage, as Eric stated on Friday we need to have a minimum ride height to prevent damage after the jumps. Do we have any spare sections of carpet that we can simply place on the landing zone to help reduce damage to the wood?

At the end of the day, i think the way the club operates works extremely well and should continue. If a driver wants more than the club can cater for then there are two options, respect the club for what it is, or, get more competitive buggy racing elsewhere.

A great debate but not everyone can be pleased in a hobby that accepts all abilities on the same playing field.

Great work RVRCCC :thumbsup:

🐀🐀🐀
 

Track
I agree with Eric that we can't widen the current race surface by adding another roll of carpet as this wud result in storage and pit issues as we only have limited space so why don't we widen the track sections? The track itself is very tight and very technical y not widen the track and have less in it? Racing wud b more fluid and ther wud b less chance of serious collisions because cars wudnt b traveling in opposite directions 3 or 4 times at high speed as we all no cars fly over the track from time to time and that's wen collisions occur southport indoor is a very similar size to r venue and they don't have no wer near as much of a technical track like we do there's is basic
A straight
A couple of hair pins
A couple of 90' bends
And a few jumps
And that's it u don't get any dirty driving becomes Thers room to overtake all round the track and I think most accidents are caused by ppl trying to get past others on such a tight track obviously accidents do happen but it's rare cos Thers room to adjust properly to take corners and overtake
I think the way the track is designed at the moment is around the mardaves but the club surely makes most of its money thro buggies so y not design the track (width) around a buggy as it's more popular by about 500%? This wudnt affect Mardave races as they hug the barriers all the way round and we can jus lift the jumps out if they don't wanna go over them ??
Tyres
I don't think banning foams is the way to go ppl should b aloud to choose wot ever tyre they want as long as it doesn't damage the carpet I mean after all we are "racing for fun" arnt we?? And to b fair foams don't burn the wood as much as rubber tyres wen the cars come off the track! And foams can't b that bad as race control sell additive ??!!
Foams re for carpet
Rubber tyres are for off-road surfaces
It's not like any1s saying if Buggys can't use foams neither can mardaves are they ?
1 thing I do agree with is ride hieght I think we shuld hav a min height and that this shuld b enforced with cars being scrutinised by race control if they appear to b very low and penalties bein handed out

Not really bothered if we ban foams or not, personally would like to see more track features and at the last AGM we were promised a separate technical area on the track for buggies which has never happened. If your passionate for change then get down to the AGM, raise your proposal and let the members vote.

Jon d for president!
 

Now thants a proper post, no bollocks just a voice for the buggy masses.

Great job Jon. D

Next time I want a 1000 words of utter knonsense please- must try harder ha