Kyosho Lazer ZX-5 SP

[RogerM]

Finally got the car ....... good old parcel farce!!!!!!

Was a little disapointed really with the conversion kit, or rather the information surrounding it!

For those people thinking of just getting the LAW35 conversion for an existing car then please be aware that you will NOT be able to build a full ZX5-SP chassis from a standard kit and the LAW35 ... the differences as far as I can tell are .....

no allen screw kit (we all knew that though)
No ally front arm mount (LAW31)
No shock tripple cap parts (they do provide new top cap nuts though ... no idea why!) let alone the loverly new bodies

Also they don't include the RB5 shock shafts (42mm front, 50mm rear) which is necessary to make the most of the new suspension arms.

No single piece motor mount / shaft support

It is also interesting trying to follow the build from 2 manuals (although if your converting a car that won't matter as you've already done the standard ZX5 build). You need to do this as there are many subtle differences throughout the build between the manuals.

What I am most defiantely not disapointed with is the finished chassis!!!

I am a bit of an geek at heart and can't build a car without measuring everything and when I have a built car I have to work through all the link position and shock position options to get a feel for the magnitude of the effect each will have. Obviously this was done with my RB5 shocks on the car to get the shock lengths right

One word springs to mind with the ZX5-SP ... balance. By that I mean that anything you can do to one end you can also achieve by doing something to the back end of the car so you should be able to build it as a front endy monster or a steer-from-the-rear. The proof will be on the track of course!

Anybody considering this conversion please stop ... just go and order it (along with the shock shafts of course W5193-01 (rr) and W5184-04 (fr) )!!!!!!!

[Welshy40]

Ok I have a question for the Lazer ZX-5 SP drivers. The front wheels look stunning as a flat plate (just like the prototypes I used on my B2 way back in the past) and was wondering if they still fit the same large hex fittings on the UJs, so if I buy a pair of fronts they should fit a ZXR or the original ZX-5? Also are the rear wheels identical or do they look pretty much the same as the original ZXR wheels that have been sold on the ZX-5 buggies since the original car was released.

[johnnyboy]

From the Lazer ZX5 to the Lazer SP

Rear Wheels are the same.
Fronts use the regular Kyosho hex
SP Fronts have a different offset than the regular ZX-5 (if you put the old wheels on the SP it will be waaaay too wide)

[Welshy40]

Thanks - so the wheels have a narrower offset so I will need a wider hex nut hub to use.

[RogerM]

Originally Posted by Welshy40

Thanks - so the wheels have a narrower offset so I will need a wider hex nut hub to use.

The change in offset is such that the size of the hex would probalby mean that you would not have any thread left for the nut!!!

Measuring the difference in offset it is 5.3mm at the mounting face (the part that would sit against the hex).

Now something that is interesting is that the new front wheel is almost identical (they have less than 0.1mm difference in offset!!) to the "Losi style" front all the other cars use! I am going to machine up a set of drive hexes to the standard size for the Losi wheels as it will give me an extra option should I get stuck for wheels trackside.

[Northy]

Kyosho copying Losi I thought everyone copied the old Lazer

G

[RogerM]

LOL ..... It's worked well since the late 80s ..... even Kyosho can't hold back the winds of change! LOL

Seriously though G' .... this new car looks very promising in it's geometry ... can't wait to get it running!

[Northy]

Does it have BJ4 geometry like most things these days?

I'm sure if Gill has anything to do with it it will be a very good car indeed.

G

[RogerM]

Northy ...... no mate ..... no BJ4 influences (apart from the front end which is actually just a Losi original anyway as you well know) which is the main reason for going for the car in the first place! Well that and how utterly brilliant the RB5 is, could have been designed for how I drive the RB5 .... perfect is a very strong word but it is so nearly justified on that car!!

I must admit that the Gill Losi Jr connection is actually a concern to me with picking up the Kyosho brand as I haven't got on well with any Losi vehical since the XX-CR, it just seems his designs don't suit my driving style at all well. On the other hand Kyosho have always prided themselves on having a neutral handling car which can be tuned towards either end of the handling spectrum ..... that is part of the reason why the Inferno series has been the main stay of 1/8th rallycross for well over a decade!!

[BradR]

Originally Posted by RogerM

no mate ..... no BJ4 influences (apart from the front end which is actually just a Losi original anyway as you well know) which is the main reason for going for the car in the first place!

No BJ4 influences? Are we looking at the same car?

The BJ4 uses Losi knuckles, so obviously that part of the front end is the same. But measure the vertical height and offset of the caster blocks, and you should be able to figure out which car "influenced" the SP's new front end.

[Welshy40]

Originally Posted by RogerM

Northy ...... no mate ..... no BJ4 influences (apart from the front end which is actually just a Losi original anyway as you well know) which is the main reason for going for the car in the first place! Well that and how utterly brilliant the RB5 is, could have been designed for how I drive the RB5 .... perfect is a very strong word but it is so nearly justified on that car!!

I must admit that the Gill Losi Jr connection is actually a concern to me with picking up the Kyosho brand as I haven't got on well with any Losi vehical since the XX-CR, it just seems his designs don't suit my driving style at all well. On the other hand Kyosho have always prided themselves on having a neutral handling car which can be tuned towards either end of the handling spectrum ..... that is part of the reason why the Inferno series has been the main stay of 1/8th rallycross for well over a decade!!

The wheels on the picture Brad just left are the same front and rear, so when will we be able to get hold of the complete set rather than just the front end new wheels?

[Welshy40]

Originally Posted by RogerM

The change in offset is such that the size of the hex would probalby mean that you would not have any thread left for the nut!!!

Measuring the difference in offset it is 5.3mm at the mounting face (the part that would sit against the hex).

Now something that is interesting is that the new front wheel is almost identical (they have less than 0.1mm difference in offset!!) to the "Losi style" front all the other cars use! I am going to machine up a set of drive hexes to the standard size for the Losi wheels as it will give me an extra option should I get stuck for wheels trackside.

Im going to make these fit my ZXS so I am guessing that they should fit and if not a little bit of designing and job done.

[bjcaldwe]

This is my zx5 with the kmc chassis with the SP conversion. I started with a b44 aluminum front hex, but needed to make the id bigger and split it. So to prove the concept I dremeled down a stock front hex to fit a losi front dish rim. Here are pics with a jconcpets b44 front,and an old xx4 5star rim. I think if you got the HB front hex for the losi rims it may work with minimal work since its made for a metrix sized axle. I will post more pics when I get my new body done and my matching rear jc rims get here. I already have the proline rear axles on the back. Sorry about all the camber on the RR.

[RogerM]

The front end is quite Losi influencd ... not BJ4 which just copied losi.. LOL

If you then work out the arcs the axle passes through with the SP and BJ4 you'll see they are quite different!

[BradR]

Originally Posted by RogerM

The front end is quite Losi influencd ... not BJ4 which just copied losi.. LOL

You claim that both the SP and BJ4 front ends came from Losi, but the SP was "influenced" and the BJ4 "copied". That's an interesting choice of words.

I never said the BJ4 front end was not similiar to the Losi front end. I even pointed out that the BJ4 uses Losi knuckles. The point I was making is that when you look at the differences between the two, the SP is closer to the BJ4 than the Losi. So, which car was really the "influence" for the SP?

If you still can't decide, just look beyond the front end of the Worlds SP. For example: graphite chassis and top deck, mid-motor saddle-pack layout, rear shocks moved to the front of the arms, etc. All of the changes from the standard ZX-5 to the Worlds SP made the car more like the BJ4WE.

[RogerM]

LOL ... you misunderstand me mate .... all I was trying to say is that the arrangement for the front end on all off roaders seems to be a straight copy of Losi's original design ... mainly because it's a really good solution for getting the steering pivot point in side the wheel and the bearings weight outside that point!

As for the "worlds" SP such as the one in your pic that is not what we are discussing here, we are discusssing the ZX5-SP release which is new suspension pieces for the standard chassis.

I persoanlly will never run the "worlds" configuration as the whole reason for ditching my BJ4WE and going to the Lazer was that it is the car furthest removed from the BJ4WE chassis layout I can get. IMHO the BJ4WE and all it's clones are not ideally suited to the sort of surfacs and tracks we race on in the UK. It may be absolutely dialed on the clay / dirt surfaces in the rest of the world but it doesn't work that well in the UK and certainly doesn't suit my driving style!!

You have to remember that on our national circuit there are NO dirt / clay tracks at all ... not even three corners in combination on dirt! We also keep our wheels on the ground much more than in the USA for example, most circuits only having one or two jump features and those are not normally blessed with proper landing ramps.
Those two points take away any advantage that the BJ4WE style cars may have and the high traction, high sidebite surfaces cause the rear suspension geometry of the BJ4 and clones to colapse on cornering .... not the quickest way around the track!

Now some people have got those cars working nicely, I have to admit that but they still suffer the rear end collapse to some extent which I personally don't like at all.


At the risk of being rude, which I don't mean to be, can we get back on topic to discussing the released version of the Lazer ZX5-SP .... the alternative to the BJ4WE style layout!

[Scouser]

I have read that some people are adding weight to the motor side of their ZX-5s to equal out the distribution a little better. Personally I have never done this and have never felt the need. I was wondering what the difference in weight side to side would be when running Li-Po batteries. I know Li-Pos are supposed to be lighter and thought it might balance the car better. Anyone running Li-po in their ZX-5?
The reason I mention it is because the next evolution of the ZX-5 appears to be a saddle pack layout. However if the Li-Po batteries balance out the chassis in the current 'touring car' style arrangement, it would mean that the saddle pack arrangement is actually a step in the wrong direction, as the next advance in batteries is undoubtedly Li-Po power.

[super__dan]

Originally Posted by RogerM

IMHO the BJ4WE and all it's clones are not ideally suited to the sort of surfacs and tracks we race on in the UK. It may be absolutely dialed on the clay / dirt surfaces in the rest of the world but it doesn't work that well in the UK and certainly doesn't suit my driving style!!

Rog, if you think any lazer of any sort will finish higher overall than the highest BJ4 WE or clone(s) at this years nationals you're deluded. It's one claim too far for me. I've driven Rich Lowe's BJ4 WE on all kinds of surfaces and it's been really very good indeed. I can't imagine Pidge's B44 looking too shabby this year or Trumans D4.

You must just admit to having the most unique requirements for car handling, something the rest of us would regard as a pig to drive most likely I just think you've made one claim to far above and couldn't let it lie.

(edit, of course the best handling car of all time EVER is the X5, though I assume that went without saying )

[RogerM]

Dan ..... I did say some people have got their BJ4WE clones to go very well indeed!

That said I have also spoken to several drivers that have the same view as I do about the rear end collapsing and what is causing it! At least one of those is an F1 (I think maybe 2 actually) and several F2s. It's just not going to suit some people, and yes I am one of those people!

I like a very flowing car with loads of steering (happy to drive part stick) but the back must follow the front and I'm not a "handbrake" user if I can avoid it. That might be unusual, I'm not sure!

I'd like to try your X5 (or anybodys) at some point .. just for the sake of comparison.

It's odd how things have seemed to change with the cars as when I was running the Pred I ran very similar set-ups to most other drivers. Same can be said of the Yokomo BC-sp, B3, XX, XX-CR but with the XX4, XXX and B4, BJ4WE I can't get them to work for me at all.....

Anyway mate ... I am sure that I'd finish higher with the ZX5-sp than any of the BJ4-u-likes so I'm going to give it a try. You might be right about the BJ4WE/ D4 / B44s finishing higher but then again the guys drivign them would be there or there abouts with most cars .... the top guys are the top guys after all.

[Richard Lowe]

Roger, get yourself to Worksop this Sunday and have a go with my BJ4, I guarantee you will be blown away

Based on my expereince in Florida our tracks arn't actually any higher grip than a well prepared clay track. When the groove started to develop there was more grip than I've ever experienced, certainly enough to get the BJ's front wheels up on hard acceleration. Whats more the locals said the track was only giving '80%' of the grip it could

You just needed to copy the setup I've posted 100% - including the front one-way diff.

If you really throw the car around that much that the rear is folding under with my setup on you want to get yourself an elastic band car (XX4 )