Entry fees

[DCM]

I thought you might of still been eating the load that you hoarded at the last one, Steve!!

[peetbee]

Originally Posted by hywel

one final note if you are going to argue do it by Pm not on an open forum please

But H, Harris even started a new thread for everyone to go and argue with Steve!!

[DCM]

Then in true French tradition, ran away and hid!!

[big dave]

Been reading though the post's in this thread. there are some really good points here, and im sure we should book a full day for the next wrca agm as im sure this will really get bashed out.

But my opinion is.........

a Reginal is the steping stone before the nationals. we run our clubs at around £5-£6 race fees, then we set our reginals at £10, that way when we travel to larger events or nationals we don't get a big shock of the cost differnce.
to help the WRCA to grow more, then i would agree we should half the price of the second class, to encourage more drivers to run a second class, and even halfing that again to a 3rd class.
ive noticed more younger drivers so far this year as the child fee has been halfed.

But the main issue is the revenue for clubs in wales. the clubs need these large event incomes. The cost of equipment, and maintenance fees, are not cheep. Wales is too small to have large clubs with 100+ members filling the bank with money, our clubs are small numbers, so race fees and membership fees are not enough to help develop a club to better things.

Swansea has lost it's track at the elba due to noise. We have had to pay for planning permission, Drawings to made of our area of land we want to develop, then we need to find more money to move our containers and track marking. that before we buy fence and build a track. Swansea is a club in wales that runs a reginal round of the WRCA. the £10 we all pay for 1 days racing goes to things like this. if we half the income from the round, then what will happen to the clubs that rely on the income each year. As said before GNR has bought 2 mowers from the income, so the club has improved, so all they need now is training to learn how to use them .

We all would like to save money where we can, and i bet most pepole would put there hands up to saving it on race fees, but you need to remember where the money goes. it goes back to you. as i mean the clubs of wales.

[Dyna]

To a point i agree, but as i said earlier, and from what other people have said, if you lower the cost slightly you should get more people attending.

Its better in my mind to have more people competing at a lower cost than less people at a higher cost if the eventual takings are the same

[big dave]

Originally Posted by Dyna

To a point i agree, but as i said earlier, and from what other people have said, if you lower the cost slightly you should get more people attending.

Its better in my mind to have more people competing at a lower cost than less people at a higher cost if the eventual takings are the same

True!. that is one way of doing it. but you can't garentee there will be more numbers attending. The WRCA is currently growing. only 2 years ago, we were lucky to see more than 20 drivers. the £10 fee has been in place for nearly 3 years. with the current numbers each club will have a good income.

We could reduce the fees by £2 to £8, then that loss in revenue over a 12 month period, could be the cost of a new mower for that club, or pa speaker, so when the grass is too long or we cant hear the pa properly. we can say, if we had short grass and the pa was clear, i would pay an extra £2.

really i think a compromise would be the reduced second class. £20 or £30 for one days racing is steep. but come on guys £10 for a days racing, is it really that much money.

[GRIFF55]

£10 for a days racing is fine steve, but when you are doing 2 classes its not £10!! Also, you being a nitro guy, get alot more track time. If it were worked out on the ammount of track time, then you would be forking out 100 notes for a days racing! (still worth it??)

[Dyna]

Originally Posted by big dave

True!. that is one way of doing it. but you can't garentee there will be more numbers attending. The WRCA is currently growing. only 2 years ago, we were lucky to see more than 20 drivers. the £10 fee has been in place for nearly 3 years. with the current numbers each club will have a good income.

We could reduce the fees by £2 to £8, then that loss in revenue over a 12 month period, could be the cost of a new mower for that club, or pa speaker, so when the grass is too long or we cant hear the pa properly. we can say, if we had short grass and the pa was clear, i would pay an extra £2.

really i think a compromise would be the reduced second class. £20 or £30 for one days racing is steep. but come on guys £10 for a days racing, is it really that much money.

Again i sort of agree with you - remember im only talking about electric rather than Nitro here, as i think most of us are.

Example though. At GNR we had 14 2wd and 8 4wd ( think there was one or two more, but that strange interference problem cut a couple of peoples racing short at the end and didnt run the finals ) at 10 quid per head thats 220 quid. If that had been cut to 8 quid per head that wouldve been 176 quid. A difference of 44 quid.

BUT, if that wad been so im pretty sure 3 or 4 of us would've ran 2 classes, and maybe a couple more who didnt come wouldve, getting us back up to the 220 or therabouts. Or of course the second class half price idea. Its all to do with how it LOOKS for value for money. I could go on about marketing and price breaks, but i would bore you all to death

And of course, as far as i know each club only runs one electric Regional each year, so thats not exactly a huge loss of income even in the worse case senario is it ?

As as been said before somewhere in the threads here, if the meeting WERE a little better - clear PA's, immaculate tracks etc etc then yes the higher fees would be worth it. And of course the bug-bear of the extra track time that Nitros have over the electrics makes your fees of the same cost BETTER value for money that we experience at the moment. Dont you agree there ?

As Griff says, if it were down to just track time Nitros would be paying substantially more than electrics per meeting....

[big dave]

Originally Posted by GRIFF55

£10 for a days racing is fine steve, but when you are doing 2 classes its not £10!! Also, you being a nitro guy, get alot more track time. If it were worked out on the ammount of track time, then you would be forking out 100 notes for a days racing! (still worth it??)

you forgetting a wrca is not only summer. its also winter. and i do run electric and i do pay £10. its still a days racing you pay for. not how much track time you get. im all for reducing the second class. even £15 for two classes is not that steep for a reginal event.
if i cut with my nitro engine, 2mins into every run, does that mean i can ask for some of money back as electric drivers had more track time. so track time will never come into it. it cant be helped that the race formatt for nitro has been made longer by its govening body. if electric drivers feel they need more track time at brca run events, they should sort it out at the top with the brca sections. this discusion was about how we feel about paying £10 to race at a reginal. i was only pointing out where the money goes, as to think of that, before fees get reduced and clubs dwindle away.
there are so many good points on here. but the track time argument is crap. its just that electric v nitro divde rubbish.
so basically as i run nitro only, i get more track time, due to me having a longer set final. "don't even use the 2 min warm up, as ive never seen an electric car been stopped for going out 2 mins early in a WRCA" so i should pay more to race than my electric compardray.
now there is one word for that ANAL!

maybe next time i go to a nitro national, i will ask if darren bloomfeild and neil cragg can pay more entry fee money as they go around the track more times than i do. and they get a 45min final and i get a 10min just think how crap that sounds.

[GRIFF55]

they only go around the track more times than you because they prepare thier cars well and have almost no technical problems and hardly ever crash!
I know the time thing doesn't hold up as a cost argument, but, if your nitro classes ran for 5 mins (if running two classes have no time for out laps in electric anyhow) would you be happy paying £20 to race on one day???? I also know how efficient other regions run for less money, admittedly they have more entries. Even with this, you can race away and be home sooner than a local meeting (why?)

My view on the money is, if it isnt reduced, how does the wrca expect to get more members(nitro or electric) as parents who want their children to do it, usually want to have a go themselves. Quite costly for an average family to get into the hobby me thinks.

Have you ran in the wrca champs electric?? not seen you racing.

Where were the wrca winter champs, as its not just a summer thing? I travelled all over the country to race this winter, if i'd have known these were on i could have saved on fuel.....

[Dyna]

I cant remember any electric off-road regionals over the winter 2009/2010 ?? Did i miss something ? As far as i know, it was just one summer set of electric regionals last year ?

I think this is all down to misunderstanding - as has been said, an electric driver asked why its 10 quid for an electric regional. Then someone commented that as Nitros have more planned track time yet pay the same fee, and isnt there something we could do to even it up a bit if we as electrics are paying the same amount of dosh ? I think thats a fair enough question to ask isnt it ?

By your argument, if you had 20 minutes total planned track time compared to electrics of 30 minutes, nitros would still be happy with paying 10 quid for the day - is that a fair statement ?

I dont see how you can say its anal for us asking the question - if you race either class and you break down/crash and cant do the full heats therby by losing track time - well frankly thats the luck of the draw. I lost 10 minutes or so out of my 30 planned at the GNR regional due to breaks and the thought of asking for money back due to less track time never occured to me... until now

The point is your planned track time in total is far more than the electrics for the same fee. How quick and how many laps we go around in that time is entirely up to our skill levels. Is that not correct ? And if you dont break anything nitros WILL have substantially more track time than electrics. Thats not nitro bashing, thats just pointing a truth out for discussion for the original question.

The reason the Neil Craggs/Darren Bloomfields get more track time is because they are better drivers than us mere mortals, and the A finals of any class are normally longer - is that not also correct ? BRCA National 1/10 2wd/4wd A-final classes have 3 leg finals, none of the others do. Thats the reward for getting and being at the top... And yes, longer track time for electrics ( more final legs for example ) is something we have discussed in this and other posts - other regions do it, so could we.

No one is nitro bashing, we are all just looking at reasons why the costs are what they are atm, comparing them to each other to see the comparisons, and seeing what people think of everything and what could be improved for next season based on those thoughts. Simples

[dorris]

The point is being missed here to a degree.... the reason for the overly high charge of £10 per class with no concessions in the first instance was so there was surplus monies to cover the cost of trophies and the like for what were initially supposed to be WRCA stand-alone trophy meets that doubled up as Welsh Regionals.

Now that the stand-alone trophy meet is no longer on offer, there ceases to be a requirement to add a premium to the race fee at each round to cover those initially planned extras.

At least £2 of each entry was to cover the cost of trophies but host clubs had to buy these up front ready for the meet and hope there was sufficient interest and numbers to cover these out-of-pocket expenses.

When you take this into consideration then it would be reasonable to charge £8 entry with say an initial surcharge of £2 to cover the cost of trophies that would be presented at the end of the series.

Most businesses make money by reducing profit margins but increase turnover.... and the same should apply here. A cheaper entry fee with increased number of entries would generate as much surplus or maybe increase it.... plus it could help increase the actual number of racers at grass roots level which has to be a good thing for every club and umbrella body.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot by pricing yourself out of the market.

[GRIFF55]

exactly what i meant, but it didn't come out that way dyna
I raced a fortnight ago and only got started 3 out of 5 heats( bugger).
no money back as it was my fault. didnt expect it anyhow.

that was for two days racing, both classes 5 heats plus 3 finals for each, 2 days £20. go figure.

[big dave]

Originally Posted by Dyna

I cant remember any electric off-road regionals over the winter 2009/2010 ?? Did i miss something ? As far as i know, it was just one summer set of electric regionals last year ?

I think this is all down to misunderstanding - as has been said, an electric driver asked why its 10 quid for an electric regional. Then someone commented that as Nitros have more planned track time yet pay the same fee, and isnt there something we could do to even it up a bit if we as electrics are paying the same amount of dosh ? I think thats a fair enough question to ask isnt it ?

By your argument, if you had 20 minutes total planned track time compared to electrics of 30 minutes, nitros would still be happy with paying 10 quid for the day - is that a fair statement ?

I dont see how you can say its anal for us asking the question - if you race either class and you break down/crash and cant do the full heats therby by losing track time - well frankly thats the luck of the draw. I lost 10 minutes or so out of my 30 planned at the GNR regional due to breaks and the thought of asking for money back due to less track time never occured to me... until now

The point is your planned track time in total is far more than the electrics for the same fee. How quick and how many laps we go around in that time is entirely up to our skill levels. Is that not correct ? And if you dont break anything nitros WILL have substantially more track time than electrics. Thats not nitro bashing, thats just pointing a truth out for discussion for the original question.

The reason the Neil Craggs/Darren Bloomfields get more track time is because they are better drivers than us mere mortals, and the A finals of any class are normally longer - is that not also correct ? BRCA National 1/10 2wd/4wd A-final classes have 3 leg finals, none of the others do. Thats the reward for getting and being at the top... And yes, longer track time for electrics ( more final legs for example ) is something we have discussed in this and other posts - other regions do it, so could we.

No one is nitro bashing, we are all just looking at reasons why the costs are what they are atm, comparing them to each other to see the comparisons, and seeing what people think of everything and what could be improved for next season based on those thoughts. Simples

what i mean by anal. is why its even been brought up, that nitros get more track time than electric. its sad to say it. there was never a meeting where a bunch of nitro heads got together and said lets make nitros have more track time than electric drivers. its only a guide formatt of how they run nitros across the WORLD. they have practice and 3 qualifyers and a final that requires a pit stop.

as for what would the nitros say if electrics had more track time.
well i can speak for at least 85% of the nitro drivers who currently race at wrca meetings. as i know most of them pretty well. and they would not give a toss. to be honest i diddn't even think anyone gave a toss what class had more run time, its the first time i have ever heard of it. so seeing as i pit with, drink with, and race with lots of nitro and electric drivers, then happy to say nitro drivers don't care either way. what wouldn't go down well, is if they had to pay a differn't fee to electric drivers. as at the end of the day. its model car racing. not pay by what class you run, or who you are, or anything else in that line. just model car racing.

there was a Winter wrca. Swansea held a round, and the other rounds never devloped. i also run 2 classes on that day and paid £20. and as i have said i agree its a lot of money for a days racing. my vote would be first car £10 and second £5 and 3rd £2.50.

[big dave]

just thought of something that might help.

as mentioned about gaining more drivers for the wrca by reducing the fee's.
there is what... 6 clubs in south wales that enter there drivers into the WRCA.
if you can find out who does not go to the WRCA rounds because the fee is £10 then that will give you an idear of if the fee was reduced we would gain more racers.

Currently there are no members of swansea who don't run at WRCA races due to the £10 fee. not saying they would not like it reduced, just stating if we reduced the fee we would not gain any more racers from swansea's current membership.


if other clubs can guide on how many racers they know would attend if the fee would be reduced, then we can work out wether it be better to reduce the initial entry fee or reduce just the second class.

[peetbee]

With respect to a winter series, I think last year's was too short notice and dates were set without some of the club's knowledge.
Lets start planning 2010's now!!

Dave, what's the mix of classes at a normal club event in Swansea, is it all nitro or do you have some electric there too?

[Dyna]

Personally, if we are all thinking of moving the WRCA and its racing forward i think it IS fair to bring up all the points we can, see what what, why is why and go from there.

I have to say i personally dont agree with your fact that Nitro drivers wouldnt be unhappy if they had much less track time for the same money - thats coming from your point where nitros get much more track time than we do - if it were reversed i bet there would be a few comments on it

Yes its all model car racing, but that isnt the whole point here - its talking about the costs of entry, value for money and the reasons why the costs are what they are. Its relevant to talk about as it comes under the 'value for money' part in my and others opinions - if you are paying for something the same as someone else, but in theory receiving less then its relevant in my book.

Anyway, be that as it may we can agree to disagree and we can talk about that at the AGM

As far as the winter WRCA goes i certainly didnt hear or know about the Swansea round or the series and i was ready to race here last winter ?

I think its fair to say most people on here agree at least to have a second class half price so we seem to be able to agree on some things

Your last suggestion of a club 'poll' or questionare is spot-on and would certainly get peoples opinions down on paper to see exactly what everyone thinks

And thanks again to Dorris for the explanation of the 2 quid for tropheys is a bit more information, and thats what we need - more information. And your views somewhat mirror my own Dorris !

[Roy]

Please find an extract from the minutes of the 2008 WRCA AGM held January 2008. This was followed by Bob's resignation following the "Rebel Series". Bob's thought at the time was to allow clubs to focus on local races and try and increase member numbers, which were reducing in some clubs, unfortunately not everyone agreed. The principle was good but not everyone agreed.

"Once the new committee was in place the dates for the 2008 Championship events were discussed by Bob Williams.
Bob tabled his vision for the future and suggested that the Championship be dropped to 2 rounds, 1 in SE‐Wales and 1 in SW‐Wales, so 2 regions – PASSED. Bob gave 2 dates for the event ‐ as there are only 2 dates not clashing with any other events (18th May & 13th July) it is to be co‐ordinated between the 2 regions as to what region runs on what date. If the 2 event system works this year, it will be increased to 2 and a final next year and so on.
It was voted that it would be £10 per entry & per class so 2 classes = £20.
WRCA is expecting the first 3 in each final to get a trophy.
WHILST THERE IS A REGIONAL MEETING ON – CLUB CHAMPIONSHIP RACING IS TO BE SUSPENDED."

Just a thought .................

Where is SCR it's all of 18hours since he was on here.............

[i4n]

Big Dave, I can't do all the regionals this year (work and other comitments get in the way) so I can't get a true record of my performance. The £10 per class has put me off doing the ones I can get to.

I'm sure others are in the same boat and I would like to get out and around to the other clubs in the area to race as opposed to COBRA which is my local club - the regionals would be a good excuse to do just that!

[big dave]

Originally Posted by i4n

Big Dave, I can't do all the regionals this year (work and other comitments get in the way) so I can't get a true record of my performance. The £10 per class has put me off doing the ones I can get to.

I'm sure others are in the same boat and I would like to get out and around to the other clubs in the area to race as opposed to COBRA which is my local club - the regionals would be a good excuse to do just that!

im sure there are others out there in the same position. my pocket would be better off if we reduce the fee, as i attend every round. so reducing the fee's by £2 would see me better off of £12 a season. even better off if i ran 2 classes. but my point was, but us saving money on the day, makes the clubs loose out. an example. when the latest bling part comes out, and its 2mm big and purple, we pay £50 for that as it says it will make us go faster. all that does is make the manufactures loads of money. but we moan about £10 for a race, where our local clubs can make a bit of money and spend it on well needed equipment and better tracks.
so basically we can pay over the odds to have the latest bits on the car's but find it to expensive to plow our money back into the clubs. thats the only bit i cant see, i know £10 is a lot of money, but its not every week, its once a month for 6 months.

but if reducing the cost, does bring in more racer's then that would equall the income. im just asking would that work, as i dont know of anyone who it would attract. not saying there isn't anyone, just i dont know of any.