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Old 28-01-2014
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Default Before the AGM, a State of the Nation/club debate.

Hi All,

With the AGM coming soon I wanted to share with you all a discussion I had this morning regarding changes to the buggy class and possibly the club in general.

I am apposed to the thoughts and comments I was hearing and my reasons for this will surprise some of you who've known me for a while.

The general gist of the conversation was about trying to make Ribble Valley into a more off road style buggy club with more slippery sections, rumble strips and possibly larger jumps. It was also mooted we pit in the other hall and carpet all the existing hall to create two tracks, one for off road and one for the GT12's. We all should run rubber tyres and raise the ride height to 10-12mm which you'd have to anyway with the changes to the track. We also threw around the idea of single class racing, either be a 2wd only or 4wd only club, along with a motor limit. I must confess the last two ideas I raised as they would logically follow the other suggestions.

What was said to be the driving force behind all this need for change was the wish to get a level playing field, get closer racing and reduce costs, and believe me we had some funny debate over whats affordable and what isn't.

Now I'll tell you why I think all this is completely wrong. Finally, after a few weeks of bringing my young lad and talking to other lads and dads, I get it. It took me a good many years but finally I now understand. Ribble Valley is a fun club, the strap line is racing for fun and its spot on.

This club is not for the fast racers who want nose to tail action for 5 minutes. I'm not decrying it at all, I think it does well and really enjoyed racing last week catering for the faster guys but its aimed at fun on a Friday night with your family and mates. These changes will take the club backwards. We have close racing now, we have cheap racing now. All the goals of our discussions are either wrong for the club or have already been achieved.

Thinking about the history of this club, the transformation from the days at Westview, then Fulwood to what its become now is unbelievable. The club has been racing for well over 20 years so many of the new ideas are old ideas and have been tried and assessed in the past. The good ones kept and the bad ones scrapped and this is whats brought us to where we are now. For example in the days of Fulwood, we raced touring cars and it was decided we enforce a motor limit. For all the same reasons, lower cost, closer racing etc. All it meant was all the members had to buy new motors and the fast guys did all they could to get the max performance. The results stayed the same, all we did was increase cost so it was scrapped. When we came to the current venue, we raced buggies on rubber and to be competitive you needed a new set every week which cost a fortune. We had bigger jumps but still people had cars on the deck and when I stopped coming, due to tyre cost, people started putting additive on mini pins to look to save an extra tenth of a second. Now its evolved to foams its great, about 15 quid for a set and they'll last a good couple of months.

The up shot of all this rambling is the committee should be congratulated for agreeing a plan, sticking to it and creating and developing a very successful club and format. It works as its is. From the automated booking in, the different practice for varying abilities, pretty much everything from the tuck shop to the foams to the 4 minute heats is right and works. I do have to hold my hand up and admit in the past I was pushing the committee to be more race minded but they held firm and were right to do so.

Its also worth remembering we've had this discussion about creating a race car club before. In fact one of the former racers felt so strongly the club should change direction he created not one but two clubs to attract the racers. The first was on a Saturday so no clash but numbers we're very low. He questioned people as to why and got told it has to be on a Friday night. So he tried again on a Friday and got the same result. So its been demonstrated, people want a racing for fun club, with good racing, yes sure, but they don't want a Southport, Chadderton or Worksop style. They don't want RVRCCC to be messed with to make it a racers club either. Or so I believe having talked to people over the past few weeks.

I'm looking forward to bringing my lad to race in the near future, or crash round the track as it will be for at least the first couple of months but at this club that's fine. Nathan and the other kids are the target market, not the A finalists. In fact this debate shouldn't concern me as a racer because when Nathan starts I'll be pitting for him (read, pitting as repairing his car every heat!) and trying to bring him on instead of racing myself.

I posted this to get the views of others, to start people thinking and see what the general thoughts are. These and other proposals I've been told will be made at the AGM so its a good discussion to have. You've got my 2 pence, its working very well, its certainly ain't broke so don't mess with it.

Please discuss.
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Old 28-01-2014
spennyy2k spennyy2k is offline
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The discussion came about via several racers, not wanting to change how the club is, ie to a pure buggy/racer club but as far as the buggies go more off road content not running them as touring cars. Yes there would could be an increase in running costs with tyres, this could be helped with a control tyre to a degree. At the end of the day they are off road cars and everyone asked across a range of driver abilities agrees with it (apart from 1). No one is saying the committee has done wrong or a bad job running things, and it is run well. Cars are getting faster and one thing that is definitely needed is a longer and wider track.
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Old 28-01-2014
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Firstly, full agree with Steve, nobody is or was saying the committee has done anything but good work however people are saying change is needed and the point I'm making is no it isn't.

We shouldn't want to raise the costs, I think that's just daft when we have something that works so well and so cheaply. Secondly, yes we race off road cars but we race them in an on road environment. People set up their cars to the conditions. No different to any other club. I can't see an issue.

Lastly, I disagree with the comment the track needs to be longer and wider. I'm sure the A final would love all those changes but this club isn't for those people. Its for the rest of the people who want to come and have a bit of fun with their toy cars on a Friday night.
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Old 28-01-2014
spennyy2k spennyy2k is offline
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I agree with what your saying however if it's tight and twisty it's hard for beginners, and its hard to pass at the top end as well, the last track had a 2.5m wide straight and it was far better
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Old 28-01-2014
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Good point Steve, tight and twisty can be tricky for a beginner. So we don't need track size, tyre, motor and car changes, all we need is a redesigned track?

If its still the same process as when I used to race, am I right in saying the track design is changed every 8 week series anyway? So job done?
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Old 28-01-2014
spennyy2k spennyy2k is offline
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The problem is there isn't enough carpet to make the track consistently wider
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Old 28-01-2014
websteri websteri is offline
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I would say that the buggies should all be running rubber not foams - they are designed to run that way. The track can be improved with better ramps, a table top with underpass for the mardaves, and rumbled bits where the sheet is to test the suspension etc. Southport have that bit done really well. If it's a fun night then I don't see a need for foams. Keep it simple with Schumacher mini pins/spikes so all run the same. Foams isn't what they were designed for. My nephew can't be going out for foams etc. Let's just keep it simple and run tyres - seems logical
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Old 28-01-2014
websteri websteri is offline
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And before the foams came in there it was fairer and more FUN. Seems like foams have divided everyone into the haves and have nots.
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Old 28-01-2014
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Sorry, I can't address you by name, I'm not sure who you are but I don't understand the haves and have nots idea. How can you stop people running new tyres every week which is what happened in the past? Surely thats haves and have nots.

The foams are simple to order direct from Schumacher, cost less than a set of the tyres your suggesting and last meeting after meeting. If we go back to rubber, racing will cost more. How does that benefit your nephew? I'm also interested, when we did race rubber, how was it more fun?

I'll also give you another reason why foams are good for RVRCCC. If a rubber tyred car leaves the track and keeps driving, there's a good chance it'll damage the floor. A foam car wouldn't.

We also need to get away from arguing what these cars were designed for. They were designed to race and that's what we're doing with them.

You do make a good point about Southport doing a good job, they do and its a great club for racers but again that isn't the point of RVRCCC. Its about fun. What you're talking about is making changes to benefit racers.

Its interesting though you've mentioned Southport. (Is your nephew booked in for Turf wars on Sunday at Southport because this is relevant if he is?) Its interesting because their members had the same issues Ribble had. High wear rates and high costs to stay competitive. They wanted to lower the cost of tyres. Pins or spikes both give good grip but wore out easily in one meeting. So they've all gone to running the old Schumacher blocks. They modify the tyre or the wheel to make them fit properly and they've solved the problem. (You could also argue our buggies aren't designed to run those tyres as our wheels are 2.2 not 2.0.but no ones looking to change that.)

Great grip and tyres now last about 4 meetings but its unlikely they'll use them elsewhere. They evolved exactly as Ribble has. They all think its great. So looking at your example of Southport, why would we want to do as they have in finding a better solution, then go back to why we found the solution in the first place?
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Old 28-01-2014
spennyy2k spennyy2k is offline
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FYI these old Schumacher blocks are infact new, if his nephew is a beginner then rubbers will be cheaper as A: he won't be fast enough to wear them and B:he won't chunk them to death. On my lads car he had 2 pairs of rear rubber tyres in about 6 months running at ribble and blackpool
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  #11  
Old 28-01-2014
spennyy2k spennyy2k is offline
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http://www.redrc.net/2013/03/schumac...ock-rear-tire/
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Old 28-01-2014
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I am going to chuck into this.

We must remember ribble is racing for fun, main aim and top of the list.

Ok, looking around the pits all or most the junior drivers currently run rubber tyres, so a change in that direction won't change anything really.
If a control tyre is introduced then there defiantly needs to be something to stop New tyres every heat or round, maybe same set for each half championship?

Also I think any increase in track size is better for any driver of any ability and alot more fun.

Only problem with a control tyre is if someone turns up for a 1st time with kit tyres, then these people should be allowed to race for upto 3weeks maybe or just don't score championship rounds while running non regulation tyres.

Ride hight is one of the things that should be raised and enforced, with or without control tyres.

These are my opinions
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Old 28-01-2014
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Steve, Yes the blocks are new but they come out of the old molds, they are still a 2.0, not a 2.2 and most people cut them to ensure a good fit.
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Old 28-01-2014
spennyy2k spennyy2k is offline
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Ah ok, i assumed they were a new mould as well, I stand corrected
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Old 28-01-2014
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Matt is right about the bottom end not being affected but the mid field will be, they'll be going quick enough to wear mini pins so it isn't fun after a week and a half.

I don't know how you could police tyres either, your getting into the need to scrutineer the cars so surely that's another reason to leave it alone.
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Old 28-01-2014
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Who says it has too be a control tyre for buggys , we run 1/10th offroad buggys so just state that they should run comercially available buggy tyres ??!!??!!??!!this would also slow the cars down stop them sliding so much and cut down on damage too the track sections ?!?!?!
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Old 28-01-2014
andy110m andy110m is offline
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I've just been looking at older threads to see if this has come up before and I found this one talking about more jumps.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131740

Seems to cover very similar ground and Matt, you made the statement you couldn't afford to go back after running foams.
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Old 28-01-2014
spennyy2k spennyy2k is offline
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The control tyre was a suggestion to control cost as there is a mini pin style tyre available and cheaper than Schumacher. Just waiting on a price
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Old 28-01-2014
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Two more thread stating how good foams are and how they reduce cost.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129195

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124690

Then I found the debate where this all started at start of last year. Seems to me, the foams issue at least, has been discussed and decided already.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119914
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Old 28-01-2014
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Wayne, the foams are commercially available and I don't get why you don't like them so much.

The issue if the club went back to rubber is how do you stop a competitive racer using a new set every run. I saw a racer trying to make the A final at the last turf wars use 3 sets of tyres.

What stops that person doing the same at Ribble? And where does it leave everyone else. If you're going to introduce rules to stop it who controls it?

The club is working well and has had this discussion before. Most people like foams and appreciate their benefits.

Again I ask, why change whats working so well?
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