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Old 14-12-2014
mark-rc mark-rc is offline
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Default Rd 2 Indoor - Good Day Gone Bad!!

Well, what can I say, I was so cheesed off after today, I feel the need to have a rant! I love Bury Buggy club, both the indoor and outdoor tracks, but after today I went home not a happy bunny! Had an OK day in 2wd, Qualified 'A' 3rd, finished 'A' 3rd. So happy with that.

However, in 4wd I TQ'ed the meeting putting it on pole, had a good start in the final, only to end up being taken out by 2nd place, where he then carried on after doing so, I then got tag teamed by some young drivers, eventually putting an end to my final. Now maybe I'm old school, and I drive with a sense of fair play, If I tag someone and put them on there lid or off the track, I wait and give them the position back! even if it's at my cost of a position! After racing competitively for well over 25 years, I have been around long enough to see how the hobby has changed, both positively and negatively. Car's and equipment are better and faster! But over the passed few years, I have noticed something that is a worry to me, that the current crop of driver's and even more so the young drivers 'the xbox generation', are missing something from racing that makes racing RC Cars 'FUN', while some are gifted with the ability to drive a car around the track at a very fast pace, 'from what I have noticed' they nearly all are missing the ability to overtake cleanly and hold back until the opportunity to overtake happens! They have no sense of fair play, only a 'win at all cost' attitude! Now, while we all want to win our races, there is 'or used to be' a skill or art to racing! I remember watching 'and racing in' races where drivers would drive around the track 'to the best of there abilities' bumper to bumper, the skill was in putting the car in front under enough pressure that they would make a mistake, and you would do a clean over take! And if you were the car in front, the skill was trying to drive a defensive line, but if you tagged the car in front, more often than not you were told to give the place back, and in most cases you would give it back automatically out of a sense of fairness. But these day's it's more like, 'If I hit the car in front and gain the position then that's all the matters!' I need to win!. And what's so upsetting, is there seems to be nothing being done as regards to driving standards. I see to many times the parents of a kid going off there heads at someone for tagging there kid's car, yet when there kid does the same thing they stand there and say nothing! I've race at many club's all over, and it seems to now be a common theme of 'bad driving standards' at almost every club you go to! While we all want and need young up and coming drivers, for the sake of the hobby, surely every club 'and parent' should be doing there bit to instill into these drivers/kid's, that racing is not just about getting your car around the track as fast as you can, but also doing it in the 'Right' manner! We all put a lot of time and money in to our hobby, and I feel it's unfair that so many racers go home from a race meeting, fed up and cheesed off, because there car got used as a battering ram! Rant over!
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Old 14-12-2014
iank55 iank55 is offline
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Didn't see your race but in the interest of balance I have to say I had a few laps of good clean racing with the young driver until I made a balls of it!

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Old 14-12-2014
Gavin Collingwood Gavin Collingwood is offline
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Totally agree with you Mark! I'm always going on about this.... The problem is unlike our old school days at trax where you had a commentary on every race with a race controller watching everything and enforcing fair play. Bury and clubs alike don't have that.... We're all volunteers and it's up to parents to enforce the art of over taking and fair play. Now I saw this race and the guy in second I didn't recognise his car or him so I'm presuming he's not a member but it was a disgraceful bit of dirty driving. I didn't see the incident with young driver 1 but I will defend him here, he's a young lad who's had a reputation for being a little over zealous should we say when going for overtakes but the last year he's matured a little and gas cleaned up his driving immensely, Obviously young driver 2 is even younger but I expect he'll mature in the coming years too as I chat with his granddad often about things like this and I know sometimes granddad has even pulled his car off mid race if he's not happy with his driving. But the guy who really nailed you was an adult and really should know better!
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Old 14-12-2014
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I saw your race Mark and to be honest you weren't the only victim of poor driving let me assure you although you appeared to come off worse. The first 5 laps or so were chaotic throughout, someone would be tagged so that seemed to give them the divine right to smash their way back through to regain the place wasn't good to watch. I'm more annoyed by the fact that we had a lot of new drivers there today so it isn't a good advertisement for our club. That said, indoor racing on slippy floors such as us and Chadderton. seem to breed terrible driving in my opinion. Lots of lads run 4wd indoor as they find it easier than tickling a 2wd around which is fair enough but the speed of the car's are ludicrous!

Indoor racing requires a smooth driving style or the car will be sliding about. I don't call any of the drivers today as dirty just careless. There does seem to be a large growth in 4wd drivers through the winter many admitting that "2wd is too hard to drive on the slippy floor" again it's up to the driver what they run but running 2wd will ultimately make them better drivers as you can't just throttle jam your way around the track using others as brakes.. If you hit someone out the way with a 2wd on slippy you lose momentum yourself which isn't good for either of you.

So to sum up you have lads who are admittedly not good enough to run 2wd on the slippy using 4wd's with stupidly fast motors and overshooting corner after corner... Maybe more need to dust off their 2wd's!!


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Old 14-12-2014
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Well. This is all a bit of a shame after what appeared to be a good day. I was just about to come here and congratulate all involved for a great meeting and thank everyone for making us feel welcome. I was in that final. Car 6. I was battered all over the place by more than one person but I'm not ranting about it. Sometimes races go this way. It's a real shame and I do my best to avoid collisions usually at more cost to my positions than anyone else, but for some reason people seem to think they can win the final in turn one. That all said, the car/driver you are all talking about is a great friend and teammate of mine and I can fully assure you that you are mistaken if you think any of his driving was anything but completely fair. My understanding of the situation was that car one went wide into the turn and car two went up the inside. Car one then attempted to get back into position but was unable due to car one having taken the position and as a consequence car one ended up off track somehow after a collision. As I was racing I can't be fully certain of events but more than one racer form today explained it to me this way. If things don't go your way, it's a real shame but the bigger shame for me was reading the post from the long term racer complaining this way. Surely it should've been dealt with and left trackside. I was really looking forward to returning to what is a great venue. Maybe I'll think twice after this. Pity. I HAD really enjoyed the day even after the 90 minute drive.
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Old 14-12-2014
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Left on a bit of a low too after the most carnage A final ive been in this year. Young Luke and Josh were mega today, just need to work on not driving through people. Cant get mad at the kids, but does leave a bad taste in the mouth on drive home :/
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Old 14-12-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Harrison View Post
Left on a bit of a low too after the most carnage A final ive been in this year. The two young drivers were mega today, just need to work on not driving through people. Cant get mad at the kids, but does leave a bad taste in the mouth on drive home :/
Agreed.
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Old 14-12-2014
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I agree Mark, really enjoyed today until about 4 corners from the end when I was leading the C final and 2nd place decided to drive into the back and over the top of me for the win and didn't have the decency to stop and wait.
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Old 14-12-2014
mark-rc mark-rc is offline
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@ 'sime46', I'm not wanting to get into a 'my mate saw this and his mate saw that'! I would say that from my point of view, I turned in to the corner and 2nd place went for a pass that was not there, hitting the side of my car knocking me out of the way, only myself and the other car knows how it happened, but I'm not looking to get caught up in a he said she said argument. My point is based at driving standards as a whole in racing, in general. As Danny said, both young drivers were very fast today, But, when they got near your car, they do end up driving through you, and yes they are young and impatient, and only see 'the win', and all we can do is keep reminding them about how to apply them selves on the track. And as for dealing with the issue trackside, whats the point? as it just ends up in a he said she said, and I've been racing long enough to know that solves nothing! As said, my point is aimed at racing as a whole, I have lost count of the amount of times I have been wiped out in a race over the past few years, and I never say a thing about it! But every club I race at of late, 'Bad' driving not dirty driving seems to be a running theme. As also said, it's not just young drivers, the disappointing thing is it's adults that do the same thing as the kids, and they should know better! But my post was not aimed at Bury Buggy Club directly, it is aimed at every club, and how they deal with driving standards.
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Old 14-12-2014
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Unfortunately this topic has taken away from what a good day's racing it was, a great track layout and some good close racing on the whole.

Thanks to Birdy for running race control, went very well on auto despite a few glitches. Thanks to Rob for a very good track layout was a pleasure to drive and very rewarding when you got it right. Another mention was everyone was great at getting out up marshal in time which makes the meeting go far smoother.


One final thought from me on the bad driving issue, courtesy and sportsmanship seems to be seriously on the wane at all levels of RC these days. 15 years ago (Jesus is it that long?!) when I first attempted to race toy car's seeing drivers wait for the car they accidentally took out was the norm, if you didn't you were almost seen as a cheat to others or certainly not racing within the spirit of the sport. This is something that is rarely seen at meetings these days including nationals which contain just as much bad driving as we've seen today. It seems as if, at nationals at least if you don't get a warning you've got away with it which in one way you have but it shouldn't be about that you should stop and wait so you are essentially apologising for your mistake there and then and it goes no further.
Racers themselves especially new or younger ones can't really be blamed for not knowing racing etiquette as they do what they see the existing members do which in recent years seems to be keep your thumb down! Lots of drivers, myself included have driven away from hitting another car with the attitude of "they wouldn't do this for me" I know this is wrong but it seems to feel like honestly and integrity leave you left behind at times.

The problem is etiquette such as waiting for others you've tagged isn't a 'rule' so people see it as optional. I think more needs to be done to educate drivers on this sort of thing not just at our club but nationally.


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Old 14-12-2014
mark-rc mark-rc is offline
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Chris, I totally agree with everything you said 100%! Everyone involved in running the club do an amazing job! Thats why I love racing at Bury.

Like you said, how will the kids ever learn when they see the older racers driving the way they do! One point though, while it may not be a 'rule' to stop if you take someone out, it is still a none contact hobby/sport, meaning wheel to wheel racing, not demolition derby! Lol

I don't wish to put a downer on anyones day, but when it happens at almost every club I race at, and then it happened at one of my favorite 10th clubs, the issue got to me, and I needed to vent and say something.

I will still be at the next meeting, coz I love the club! But if by my posting this, by some way makes people think and change how the apply themselves on race day, then some good came out of it.
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Old 14-12-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark-rc View Post
@ 'sime46', I'm not wanting to get into a 'my mate saw this and his mate saw that'! I would say that from my point of view, I turned in to the corner and 2nd place went for a pass that was not there, hitting the side of my car knocking me out of the way, only myself and the other car knows how it happened, but I'm not looking to get caught up in a he said she said argument. My point is based at driving standards as a whole in racing, in general. As Danny said, both young drivers were very fast today, But, when they got near your car, they do end up driving through you, and yes they are young and impatient, and only see 'the win', and all we can do is keep reminding them about how to apply them selves on the track. And as for dealing with the issue trackside, whats the point? as it just ends up in a he said she said, and I've been racing long enough to know that solves nothing! As said, my point is aimed at racing as a whole, I have lost count of the amount of times I have been wiped out in a race over the past few years, and I never say a thing about it! But every club I race at of late, 'Bad' driving not dirty driving seems to be a running theme. As also said, it's not just young drivers, the disappointing thing is it's adults that do the same thing as the kids, and they should know better! But my post was not aimed at Bury Buggy Club directly, it is aimed at every club, and how they deal with driving standards.
I hear what you're saying and agree to a point, but it's always gonna turn into a debate of who blames whom in a forum post where people are free to air their own views. I very much agree that standards in races are questionable at times and our A final(supposedly the best drivers) was a shambles and very tricky to negotiate with cars seemingly coming at you from all angles. I was running second towards the end and got bulldozed by someone and a group slipped through while I was recovering. I was fortunate to finish fourth so not a total loss. As we were new comers we were(correctly) put in the bottom heat so had to contend with traffic and weird on track antics all day. the final therefore wasn't a total shock to me as I'd got through worse in the day. It saddens me however that after a great day I jumped on here with the full intention of thanking everyone involved only to read your post. I understand your feelings but think it could've been handled better. Just my opinion. I promise you I'm not here to point fingers and fall out with anyone. It is after all only toy car racing. I take it seriously but it's not the be all and end all of my life. I love it so much but I do my very best to maintain perspective about everything that happens, both on and off the track. Personally, rightly or wrongly I would have spoken to the parties concerned at the meeting after the race rather than stewing on it for a while and hitting the keyboard. That's again just my opinion. Apologies if I came across badly. Just looked a little like a an attack on someone which wasn't honestly justified. I sincerely hope we can all race together at the club or anywhere soon. It was as said, a great day.
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Old 14-12-2014
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I just hope our visitors today aren't put off by this and come and race some other meetings with us soon. As Mark says the level of poor driving was unusually high today so wanted to raise the questions.

I think some slightly more detailed drivers briefings may help. It's all good and well to say let the faster cars through etc there is a safe way to do it that needs to be explained a bit clearer imo. Yes it may get tedious to the experienced racers but if it helps make for cleaner/fairer racing? Maybe the club should draft up an information sheet that will be issued to new joining members highlighting these sort of areas which will help them settle into the race day etiquette easier instead of just saying 'off you go then!'

Just a thought?


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Old 14-12-2014
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Good idea. We faster drivers also need to be more considerate when lapping. I would never smash someone out of the way but I'm not slow to grumble when someone holds me up. My gob is my vice. Lol. It's a work in progress. today was our first visit and although I can't speak for all of us, I for one will definitely be coming back as soon as I have a spare Sunday.
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Old 14-12-2014
Gavin Collingwood Gavin Collingwood is offline
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Originally Posted by Chris Elworthy View Post
I saw your race Mark and to be honest you weren't the only victim of poor driving let me assure you although you appeared to come off worse. The first 5 laps or so were chaotic throughout, someone would be tagged so that seemed to give them the divine right to smash their way back through to regain the place wasn't good to watch. I'm more annoyed by the fact that we had a lot of new drivers there today so it isn't a good advertisement for our club. That said, indoor racing on slippy floors such as us and Chadderton. seem to breed terrible driving in my opinion. Lots of lads run 4wd indoor as they find it easier than tickling a 2wd around which is fair enough but the speed of the car's are ludicrous!

Indoor racing requires a smooth driving style or the car will be sliding about. I don't call any of the drivers today as dirty just careless. There does seem to be a large growth in 4wd drivers through the winter many admitting that "2wd is too hard to drive on the slippy floor" again it's up to the driver what they run but running 2wd will ultimately make them better drivers as you can't just throttle jam your way around the track using others as brakes.. If you hit someone out the way with a 2wd on slippy you lose momentum yourself which isn't good for either of you.

So to sum up you have lads who are admittedly not good enough to run 2wd on the slippy using 4wd's with stupidly fast motors and overshooting corner after corner... Maybe more need to dust off their 2wd's!!


Chris
t

Hahaha yeah 4wd wusses! Good day all in all, well done to Chris today you drove well... You WERE due one! ;-)
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Old 15-12-2014
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Default Extension lead

Had to bail out early yesterday due to a lack of talent, reflexes, snapped a wishbone on my new B44.3 with way too big a motor in it. However, I did leave my extension lead behind save unplugging everyone connected to it.

Maddy was going to try and remember it, if so thats great, if not if anyone did pick up an orange and black extension reel then i'll pick it up next time.

If its gone missing its not the end of the world,

Note to self buy spares for your car before racing .........

There was an upside to the day, got back in time to see Man U smash Liverpool which is life and death compared to my toy car racing .
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Old 15-12-2014
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Done a spot of tidying up.

Opinions are fine, venting is ok within reason but lets keep names out of this. All concerned know who we are talking about and anyone who doesn't does not require to know.
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Old 15-12-2014
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Default Good day

I had a great day literally first time picking up the sticks in 20years, too much motor, speedo set to all or nothing, 2wheel drive, slippy as anything, camouflaged car you know what it was great!
thanks gents.
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Old 02-01-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark-rc View Post
Well, what can I say, I was so cheesed off after today, I feel the need to have a rant! I love Bury Buggy club, both the indoor and outdoor tracks, but after today I went home not a happy bunny! Had an OK day in 2wd, Qualified 'A' 3rd, finished 'A' 3rd. So happy with that.

However, in 4wd I TQ'ed the meeting putting it on pole, had a good start in the final, only to end up being taken out by 2nd place, where he then carried on after doing so, I then got tag teamed by some young drivers, eventually putting an end to my final. Now maybe I'm old school, and I drive with a sense of fair play, If I tag someone and put them on there lid or off the track, I wait and give them the position back! even if it's at my cost of a position! After racing competitively for well over 25 years, I have been around long enough to see how the hobby has changed, both positively and negatively. Car's and equipment are better and faster! But over the passed few years, I have noticed something that is a worry to me, that the current crop of driver's and even more so the young drivers 'the xbox generation', are missing something from racing that makes racing RC Cars 'FUN', while some are gifted with the ability to drive a car around the track at a very fast pace, 'from what I have noticed' they nearly all are missing the ability to overtake cleanly and hold back until the opportunity to overtake happens! They have no sense of fair play, only a 'win at all cost' attitude! Now, while we all want to win our races, there is 'or used to be' a skill or art to racing! I remember watching 'and racing in' races where drivers would drive around the track 'to the best of there abilities' bumper to bumper, the skill was in putting the car in front under enough pressure that they would make a mistake, and you would do a clean over take! And if you were the car in front, the skill was trying to drive a defensive line, but if you tagged the car in front, more often than not you were told to give the place back, and in most cases you would give it back automatically out of a sense of fairness. But these day's it's more like, 'If I hit the car in front and gain the position then that's all the matters!' I need to win!. And what's so upsetting, is there seems to be nothing being done as regards to driving standards. I see to many times the parents of a kid going off there heads at someone for tagging there kid's car, yet when there kid does the same thing they stand there and say nothing! I've race at many club's all over, and it seems to now be a common theme of 'bad driving standards' at almost every club you go to! While we all want and need young up and coming drivers, for the sake of the hobby, surely every club 'and parent' should be doing there bit to instill into these drivers/kid's, that racing is not just about getting your car around the track as fast as you can, but also doing it in the 'Right' manner! We all put a lot of time and money in to our hobby, and I feel it's unfair that so many racers go home from a race meeting, fed up and cheesed off, because there car got used as a battering ram! Rant over!
Couldn't agree more Mark.
Racing etiquette and common decency says that
If you pass someone unfairly by taking them out.
That you should wait until the position is given back.
Yes it is Policed more at Nationals and bigger meetings like Worksop or Silverstone. With good refereeing at those meetings.
But as Mark says, it's not necessarily the clubs to blame.
More the dirty kind of drivers , that think, "Well if there's no refs, then sod it I'll nail the guy in front to make a position!"
The decent ones amongst us all know it is wrong and wait.
It's just a shame that element is coming into racing.
The only way I can see it changing is if more penalties were given out.
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