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  #21  
Old 24-03-2012
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Originally Posted by h0m3sy View Post
I don't really see your point here Tony, if you reckon your not quick enough for F2 then what is the problem with staying in F3? You said yourself there isn't much difference between running a 10.5t boosted as opposed to a Mod motor round the tracks that we race on. At least if your in F3 with 10.5 boosted you have a chance of winning something at the end of the year if your good enough.
My point is while there is not much difference in time there is a difference in how the car drives.a 2wd mod is more challenging to drive than one with 10.5 with timing and while I might not be quick I still would rather drive that.the above post highlights that those running 10.5 with timing won't be at a disadvantage.as for championships I'm not pushed about trophies I just would like to race against others of the same pace.with what you are suggesting would put someone who doesn't qualify(not by choice) for f2 would then be forced to run 10.5.I honestly don't understand the need for f3 to be limited to 10.5
Keep in mind that under this proposal everyone will be racing against each other in one class (e.g if you Finish 11 overall and are leading f3 driver you still only get 11th overall points,if the next placed f3 is 14th they get 14th overall points on the day.the championship is then calculated by the overall scores of each driver against that of the others in their formula,so you will be racing modifieds anyway.This is my understanding of the proposal and stands to be correctted.
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  #22  
Old 24-03-2012
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Hi guys,

Loving the chat on here at moment.
Can I throw out an idea regarding a motor regulation for F3?
A good compromise could be to limit the motors to 8.5 with timing.
8.5 would represent at half way point between clubman and modified and will be good for both 2wd and 4wd..
What do u think?
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  #23  
Old 24-03-2012
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10.5 boosted for me I think, I could get it going just as quick as a mod motor, no problem. I'm sure Mark Penney has run a 10.5 boosted round The Naul, so if it's good enough for him, it'll do for me. Only other motor I have is a 7.5t. Wouldn't be able to use it if the limit is 8.5 in F3.
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  #24  
Old 24-03-2012
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I think were nearly there ,10.5 seems to be the only sticky one.
My choice would be 10.5 esc timing allowed or any motor no esc timing allowed.
As far as Tonys point about putting in a really quick motor i think most in f3 would go slower with a 5.5 or similar because you would lose the driveability and consistency that were after and i would think that an 8.5 untimed would probably be the best (easiest to drive),but allowing the 10.5 in would make it easily accessible to those moving up.
It could also be monitered and adjusted as needed as this would be a first year.
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  #25  
Old 25-03-2012
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My take on the motor thing for f3 is this, bearing in mind that i have a 6.5, 7.5, 8.5 in my motor box.
Because there are a lot moving up, I do get there will be some more experienced drivers, using a 10.5 with timing may be the way to go. This give the drivers moving up the chance to learn about timing and getting it right. With the current escs its not just a case of sticking on a few degrees and away ya go. Its getting rpms, boost, turbos and a heap of other things right for the way they drive.

I get it that some drivers in full mod might look at this as a step back, but I think we should be looking at it more from the point of view of drivers moving up and learning. I really think using a 10.5 in your car is a great way of improving your driving, I feel mine has improved greatly since we started doing proper clubman, where as before i had an 8.5 and a 6.5 in my cars.
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  #26  
Old 26-03-2012
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One issue with going 10.5t Boosted rather than full open mod is the fact that you go from needing any old speedo with a modified to keep up to needing a modern up to date speedo with all the bells and whistles that provides.

This is similar to how the BRCA TC's have recently went and I feel it's a massive step-backwards as your effectively introducing money into the equation as a more modern speed controller = more speed.
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  #27  
Old 26-03-2012
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Hi,

The same argument could be said of no timing on ESC (so old ESC can be used etc.) and unlimited motor. We would then need to get a selection of motors to try out, I for one could not say right now what motor would suit my driving style and a particular track.

Also depending on the track & conditions on the day you might need to change motor which is a hassle & more expense.

From talking to a few lads a compromise was running an 8.5T with no timing.

The only disadvantage one racer pointed out was if we want racers to progress with their knowledge of car setup, not allowing ESC changes limits your learning experience and the leap to modified is then a bigger one.

Another suggestion was to allow ESC timing/boost etc. with a 10.5T AND an 8.5T with no timing/boost.

So these are my proposals for the F3 class:

1. 8.5T with NO ESC timing/boost changes (The same as existing Clubman bar the hotter motor)

2. As above but ALSO allow drivers with a 10.5T and ESC timing/boost.

No. 2 above caters for everybody but I'm unsure if it's too complicated to police?

What does everybody think?

Kevin
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  #28  
Old 26-03-2012
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Just for my tuppence worth
F3 - 10.5 motor with esc timing allowed or any motor with no esc timing.
( from my limited experience, if you put in too hot a motor and can`t drive it you will go slower)
This would allow anyone to move from clubman with a 10.5 motor (even the basic ezrun has timing available) or any current F3 driver to compete.
But re-doing the F grading as Mark is currently down as an F3 driver, we could tie one hand behind his back but he would probably still win anyway
As for 4 WD
F5/F4 Clubman 10.5 No esc timing
F3 8.5 No esc timing
F2/F1 Anything goes.
As for the finals on the day .you race in the position you qualify in overall.
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  #29  
Old 26-03-2012
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I agree with you Ivan on all your points except I would leave the F3 as is, and allow anyone new to the formula to run their 10.5t boosted. This would save anyone having to buy new esc's or motors. As you quite rightly stated, it's not always about speed. On yesterdays times, I think you would have qualified 7th in the A Final Mod. Having a good line and a clean run can have you up with the best, clubman or mod.
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  #30  
Old 26-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartstuffer View Post
Just for my tuppence worth
F3 - 10.5 motor with esc timing allowed or any motor with no esc timing.
( from my limited experience, if you put in too hot a motor and can`t drive it you will go slower)
This would allow anyone to move from clubman with a 10.5 motor (even the basic ezrun has timing available) or any current F3 driver to compete.
But re-doing the F grading as Mark is currently down as an F3 driver, we could tie one hand behind his back but he would probably still win anyway
As for 4 WD
F5/F4 Clubman 10.5 No esc timing
F3 8.5 No esc timing
F2/F1 Anything goes.
As for the finals on the day .you race in the position you qualify in overall.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????
Hi Ivan,

I think that's spot on, I'd vote yes to this proposal

Kevin
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  #31  
Old 27-03-2012
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Just one thing on the grading system ,you can pick which class you enter but the committee would be able to change this based on your average race times or experience.
This would be a trial for the club c/ship (i presume) and on the day you would qualify as per class F1,F2,F3,F4,F5 (amalgamated as deemed necessary on the day) and race your finals based on your overall qualifying time and still score poimts for class results and overall.
This should also make for more equal grids and make marshalling numbers easier.
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  #32  
Old 27-03-2012
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i was just thinking about the whole motor and timing thing. Would it be worth doing a few experiments on this? So that we can try to keep things resonably fair.
Maybe one club day we could take two cars,maybe put a 7.5 in one, and a 10.5 with timing in another, and see if they run similar times. Theres no point in bringing in the motor rules if we find that using one or the other is by far better than the other.
We may find its best to have a limit on motors of some form. Even though we know if you over do the motor and cant drive you actually go slower.


Also a point to note, I found qualifying much better at the nationals as drivers of similar speed were in the same heats. There was no constant trying to get past back markers, or pulling over for faster guys. Was really good and shows this is the way to go.
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  #33  
Old 27-03-2012
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To get any kind of equivalence e.g. 8.5T non-boost = 10.5 boosted you'd need to run some tests - get the best driver you can, and then get him to set a fast lap with each (in the same car). The more clean lap times, the less the uncertainty (Standard Deviation and all that). The fact you're moving to a new track soon might change that, as boost favours bigger tracks (I think).

I agree with Moley about wallet racing - the touring cars have become absurdly expensive because of the arms race of speed controllers, wear rate, tyres and a new chassis every year. Off-road avoids much of that because the tracks limit the speeds attainable. Thus, in terms of F grades, ability will have a far greater impact than equipment. I'd probably be as fast with a 13.5 as an 8.5 on most tracks, whereas a better driver would be markedly faster.
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  #34  
Old 27-03-2012
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2 weeks ago we tried that I ran my 10.5 boosted and Mick O`Leary ran his 7.5/8.5 and lap times were very similar i won 1 final and he won 2 but close enough times between us.
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  #35  
Old 27-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartstuffer View Post
2 weeks ago we tried that I ran my 10.5 boosted and Mick O`Leary ran his 7.5/8.5 and lap times were very similar i won 1 final and he won 2 but close enough times between us.
And actually, now that i think about it, when I stuck a 6.5 in my 4wd a few weeks ago, there was no real improvement in my times.
I think i need to oil my fingers
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  #36  
Old 11-05-2012
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Hi all,

Just to give you an update - the committee discussed this topic at a meeting earlier this week and agreed that there maybe scope for changes to the classes to allow each level of racer to compete for a trophy against drivers of similar ability, but further investigation will be required before considering any changes.

Committee members will be talking to all racers over the next month so that the discussion can proceed with all the facts at the next committee meeting in early June.

More updates after that.
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