Suggested Electric 1/8th section rules

[Marvin]

I've written a set of draft rules to run alongside the 1/8 rallycross rules set out in the BRCA handbook.

Here they are.

[Marvin]

Ahem. Bump. Ahem.

[dodgydiy]

spot on there, nice, easy and open. the most important thing covered too, proper protection of soft cased lipo's rather than insisting on far more expensive hard case

[Marvin]

Thanks, keep the feedback coming.

[Marvin]

Updated to clarify the 3rd channel/mechanical brakes rule, and to change suggested final length to 10 minutes.

[James]

Hi Marvin,

Great work doing more on this, i wrote to Jim spencer about a year ago with some bits and bobs to get the ball rolling, PM me your email and i'll share the correspondance..

Some thoughts so far:

rule 2B b - you suggest 22v, isnt this a bit high, im sorry its probably me who doesnt understand your reference to other classes

rule 2B d - you suggested 2 straps - wont work as a number are held down 'long ways'

rule 11q - I really think for actual BRCA events the classes should be in separate heats.. Club discretion for other events...but to run an event on BRCA rules as a guide your suggestions make sense..

rule 11 general - 3x 8 min legs may be beter than 2 for the A and single 8 min legs for all other finals - however this will only work and be practical if there is a high enough entry..

[Marvin]

The 22.2V rule allows people to run 6S LiPO, in line with much experience from the US. I was also referencing ROAR, in that they're running their 1/8 Electric championships soon, they have two classes. One is based on their current rules (4S limit) and the other has a 6S limit. The 6S limit class has about twice the entry numbers. I think they'll go with a 6S limit to be honest.

Two straps would still be better than one lengthways strap. I did say that one traditional 10th scale style strap may be used.

I think I said in there that BRCA rules - a separate class is required (although I wrote this in mind of having a separate electric event). I also wrote it as a guide for clubs who have not come across electric 1/8 before, and who need some guidelines.

The 10 minute final rule was to be inline with the US rules again.

PM'd

[Marvin]

Right, this has now been on RC-Monster for a few days, and they believe it has passed. RC-Monster is THE place to go to find out about brushless 1/8 with a lot of racers and very knowledgeable people on there, from all around the world - so I take their advice that it is now ready.

Who at the BRCA do I need to send it to? I see you mentioned Jim Spencer, but I guess, if I pass it to you now sm0kin, you'll be able to see that it goes to its proper place.

[Northy]

Some feedback:

2b. - What would be a 'suitable manner' and should they really be checked at booking in? Who by? Not scrutineering?

2i. - Why?

2j.- That rules out using standard 10th packs then using 4mm corally style sockets?

6. - Would that be the tech officer?

11. - Fianls, agree with Ralph on this (Smokin) Three with best 2 is much easier to run - check out 10th rules

q. - Buzzer? How does that work then?

r. - Pitting - confusing

G

[c0sie]

Marvin,

If you are looking to start up a section under the BRCA for 1/8th Electric Offroad then you will need to get some form of Committee members together, a loop-hole free set of rules together (from experience!) and approach the BRCA.

The way that we (the Micro Section) did it was to approach a section of the BRCA, the 12th Circuit Section, and ask them to take us under their wing. They gladly did this and voted within their committee to action this.
If the Micro Section want to become a section within their own right then we will need to get this voted upon by the BRCA.

My advice would be to get some RELIABLE and enthusiastic peeps together, find your leader and elect him chairman, get someone who is good at writing a story to do your PRO work, find a treasurer (someone reliable and good with numbers), and find someone who is willing to run around like a crazy man to be your secretary.
Approach a BRCA section and put forwards your proposal. If they arent willing to take you under their wing then email the BRCA Secretary (Mick Hill) and ask his advice.

Oh, and remember that we do this for the love of the hobby/sport, but dont expect it to be plain sailing..
If you need anymore advice let me know

[Northy]

Good advice there from Cris, he sat in on our AGM to see how the "Pro's" do it

G

[c0sie]

I learnt muchly

[Marvin]

I was only really writing these as a framework, I don't have the ability to try and organise a section body mainly due to lack of transport.

Not only that, at the moment we do not have enough being raced around the country to even consider their own section. I wrote these to slot into the 1/8 Rallycross rules, so I guess I'd need to contact the section chariman about it, so that clubs who are approached by those with 1/8 electric cars know what to do with them.

To answer your concerns Northy:

2b: A suitable manner is where they cannot fall out, move around etc. If they are held in by a rubber band then obviously this won't work. It's down to the conscience of the suitability scrutineer as to what passes and what doesn't. I suppose that by a scrutineer would work, but I was also writing these for clubs - at the end of the day, it's their decision whether they allow them to race or not. If the club don't feel the batteries are retained in a safe way, then they aren't allowed to race.

Also, I wanted to keep it quite open, as many people have invested a lot of time and money into this already, if I simply said that they must be retained in a battery box with velcro straps, then this eliminates those people who have (perhaps) come up with something different or even better.

2i: These are also construction guidelines for users. Directly-soldered would be more efficient than using connectors, and this was to also clarify that people are allowed to direct solder, as well as use connectors.

2j: Hmmm - I need to correct that, though it is best if 4mm Corallys aren't used. People need to understand that they run far better on dedicated LiPos. I can see many people just putting any old 1/10 packs in there and destroying them. If you are running two seperate packs in series or parallel, they must be the same age, condition, same number of cycles etc. It is sometimes easier if you just get new LiPos.

6: Oh, maybe! We could decide names later. My original thought was technical scrutineer person. So I'd need some help with names (for all the difference that it makes).

11: The reason for this is that the US has FAR more experience with 1/8 off road electric than us, so I copied their format. Also, I always saw Rallycross as much as an endurance event as an all out race. If you are allowed to drop a result, it defeats some of the point in my opinion.

11q: That's one thing that I'm not sure on yet. At my club's AGM, we decided that an electric in a nitro heat is dangerous as they are hard to hear over the nitro noise. I argued that you should use your eyes and have an awareness about you as well. I put that in there as a rule should a club want to enforce it. I'd rather that an electric is allowed to run, rather than be turned away. I guess it'd just be a cheap 6V buzzer type device (probably from Maplin) that'd plug into the receiver. They don't take much power to run, and if they are the right pitch, would be discernable from nitro.

11r: I will admit you're the first person to say that (not just on this thread). Basically, if running without stopping, the electric must be called in for a pit-stop by race control/the referee at some point (when the pit lane is clear preferably), and then be picked up, before being allowed to continue. This is to prevent cars from using the pit lane as another main straight which is potentially dangerous.

I don't know about setting up a section yet, I don't think I'm the right person for it to be honest.

Simon

[Northy]

Hi Simon,

First off, let me just say I'm not knocking you in any way, it's good you've sat down, thought about it and done something

Anyway:

2b. - OK, but requires some consistency maybe?

2i. - Not needed then IMHO. I'd only make a rule if you have to - E.G. batteries must be connected with connectors.

2j. - You missed that one

6. - If there's ever to be a big meeting the names will have to be right

11. - Doesn't make them right. It is worth looking at 10th electric rules too as these are really just bigger versions aren't they?

11q. - But someone turning up without a buzzer will be turned away? It just seems a really odd idea to me. Imagine them sat waiting for the start all 'buzzing'

11r. - Ah ok, makes more sense. But could be fairly hard to police?

G

[Marvin]

2b: I agree, it's a little vague - but what can I do to keep it flexible and open, yet safe?

2i: I'd prefer if people didn't use 1/10 packs with 4mm connectors at all. They have been known to melt in 10th scale, this is 1/8 with one hell of a lot more current. Deans and 4mm connectors are only rated for about 80A at most (Deans more like 40 and with 4mm, it depends on whose ratings are used, some are about 40A, others are up to 80A). A 1/8 car on 4S can pull 150A on occasion - it's just asking for a problem.

A 10th style pack with just wire coming out would be fine. Stick a couple of 6mm gold tubes on there and we're ok as the wire would be directly soldered to the cell tab internally.

2j: Yeah, I just edited when I realised I missed that one.

11: I'd prefer to be inline with the rest of the world to be honest...

11q: I know. It's pathetic.

11r: Race control calls them in, when the car comes in, it is picked up and raised above the pit crew's head so it can be seen, then placed back down again. It shouldn't be too difficult to see.

[jasonwipf]

Hey guys. I'm from the state of Texas here in the U.S. Let me give you my 2 pence from what we have learned over here.

Roar is a nice standard to start with but their race attendance has been in a steady free fall the last few years. The dominate racing scene is whats called the RC pro series. The rules are a tad more relaxed and run as a points series throughout the year. You actually have to qualify in RC Pro and the points series thing keeps more people addicted to the schedule and turnout is better.

Roar is 4cell hard case only. Sorta sucks cuz they are expensive and limited in battery selection. Hence the low attendance for 1/8th electric.

One strap battery trays are ok if they are thick and go front to back and have sufficient side walls to old the battery in place. Even 2 strapped cases with low walls can be potentially more dangerous. Since lipos are stacked on top of one anther and often not glued (even if they are) they can slide on each other in a hard frontal collision and when they do they can break right thru their wrapping, brake off the electrical tabs, short out and FIRE! One tray I like to use is the Ofna hyper 9 tray, its supper tough and has high walls to support the battery well (2 strap). We have broken every RC monster tray we have ever used. Yes we brutalize our cars here.

Humm thats interesting to note about the Deans plugs. Are you talking about the old pin style? Because well over half of us in the U.S. use deans ultra plugs and I have yet to hear of a plug related meltdown.

I dont know what is really "Dangerous" about running Electric with Gas. If a marshal is standing in a lane or positioned behind a jump the he is asking to get hit electric or gas. Marshalls that marshal with their ears and wait for you to gun the gas after you flip are subpar anyways. They need to be "watching" their section quiet car or not. Worse case is new marshals to 1/8th electric have been known to start running your car back to the pits thinking you have flamed out. lolol

In big regional or national, Roar or RC pro races we do run our electrics separate from gas but local club races we mix them. Not only does this pit more drivers together and make it more fun and competitive but saves time by eliminating another class that has to race. Some clubs have gas guys that complain about our longer run times and lack of pitting. So their whining has made some clubs split them but to the peril of competitiveness as some weekends you have 10 electrics and 3 gas or vice versa and one group ends up being the class with 3 buggies and thats not fun. But we came up with this system when running electric and gas together.

Electric buggies must pit for every 10minute segment of race time. Pits consist of rolling into the pit and your pitman lifting the car for a count of 1 one-thousand, 2 one-thousand, 3 one-thousand. DROP and GO! A 20 minute race would require 2 mandatory pits. Any race over 20 minutes and you are required to do battery changes at no longer than the 20 minute mark. also if you do a battery change (since they know it takes a long time) you are exempt from the pitting rule granted you change batteries at every 20 minute mark. We have tested and timed this system ad nauseam and it averages out to being about the same amount of pit time gobbled up for both gas and electric. Fuel guns or just very fast gas pitters can do it faster and give them selves a bit of an advantage but its marginal and we electrics do have better reliability and can jump further on a shorter run up than the gas guys so that tends to bring the advantage back to par (or better, Shhhh).

I've seen overly cautious gas drivers richen up their motors and have to pit every 5 minutes and others either lean it out and/or drive smooth and go for up to 12 minutes. So remember there is strategy on their part and they have to choose what they want to do to be competitive. When they whine about our longer run times and or our faster motors (because they are too cheep to get fast gas motors) then make us suffer and race separate because of their ineptitude is really not fair.

Oh btw I dont know if you have seen this mount but I just got it this week and it rocks!


1 screw motor removal for pinion changes or mesh adjustments. made for many popular brands. About $20 u.s. dollars more than the RC monster mount but WOW, it is well worth the convenience. www.elitercd.com

Well its late here, I gotta go to bed. We got our regions Roar electric championships tomorrow. Wish me luck!

[c0sie]

Nice post man

[Marvin]

I've personally never had an RC-Monster battery tray break, and I've had some huge batteries in about 5 conversions. I'm not a saint of a driver either.

The Elite-RCD motor mounts do look good - though as you say, they are pricy.

In fairness, I've got a 6S limit, and they don't have to be hardcased - I ignored ROAR's rules on that.

I've seen a Deans melt in 1/10 and the current draw involved is not as high as 1/8, so overall heat will be lower. I'm not too keen personally, but they are allowed. I just thought I'd warn people.

I wrote the rules to also help advise clubs who don't have enough electrics to race their own class. In my opinion, they really do belong in a separate class to the nitro.

The main reason why electric could be considered dangerous with nitro is if you have a long jump section, someone crashes at the end, the marshal looks up the jump section, and doesn't see the electric coming, and has no chance of hearing it over the nitro noise.

Thanks for your points, they helped me think about why I made certain decisions in the rules.

[DaveG28]

I guys,

I'm terms of the proposed series for 2010, would such a series be based on these rules? If so what was submitted in the end on the battery side, would 4mm connectors be ok, eg 2 2s packs together?

Also, is there a plan for an EB list?

Dave

[Marvin]

There is a plan to run these rules for now, but they can be changed as seen fit, IF the series runs.

I really don't want people to use 4mm or Deans plugs on the ESC battery wires - meltdowns in 1/10 happens more regularly than I think is safe, and so with the additional current draw (and heat) of 1/8, it's going to be worse.

Especially since unbalanced 10th packs (where people have two 1/10 packs of uneven cycles) put together, and pushed - one is likely to give up the ghost.

Dedicated LiPos are going to be better, and I'd prefer if people used dedicated LiPos - there will be less problems overall.