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  #21  
Old 11-08-2014
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Default Vintage guidelines

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Originally Posted by 36racing View Post
Yes, will be good to set a control motor and maybe a control tire for the Vintage class, not to make it expensive, to make it easier on people.
-Josh Hardwick
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattV6 View Post
I'm loving the comments on here guys
Having a chat on Thursday would be a good idea
If we could get a set of guidelines/rules down for the Vintage class that would be good
Also as some of the older vintage cars aren't as strong and the parts are in some cases very hard to get we need to race a bit more gentlemanly I'm just thinking if someone brings along their car to be taken out at the end of the straight at speed with a unneeded over taking manoeuvre someone's not going to be very happy. Of course battle it out like in any other race but just remember to keep in mind the rarity of some of the spare parts lol.
I agree pre 2000 would be classed as Vintage, thats almost 15 years ago now. Or we could go a little further back and say 1995 and thats almost 20 years?
Personally i would have thought 2000 would be better as it opens the choice of cars up for a vintage class and spares etc
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Originally Posted by 36racing View Post
I Agree.
You could just lay down the obvious racing rules to people with if a driver is faster than you, yeah give him a battle for a bit, but if your slowing him down, move over etc etc...
-Josh
Great
As I see it then, things to consider before Thursday re. Guidelines:
Pre-2000 & Re-re (pre-2000 design) seems to be agreed
Tyres: control tyre? Bear in mind some old cars don't take modern tyres (e.g. My Tamiya Hornet has very non-standard wheels)
Motor: brushed and/or brushless? Turn/kV limits? This is probably the important factor...
Batteries: NiCd/NiMH only or LiPo ok too?
And important to bear in mind Josh's point about cost and Matt's on keeping the old cars 'safe' due to difficulty in obtaining parts (keeping speed down?)

Anyway, I think that's it for now.... I'm holding off getting motor/esc until we are decided!
Barry
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  #22  
Old 11-08-2014
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Pre 2000 sounds good, it'd make sure the cars are different to what we use today but without being too restrictive, like you guys say some parts just don't exist any more.

Now you need to find an old Losi XX CR Matt

IMO, lipo's are handy because everybody already has them. I don't miss having to balance NIMH's or deep discharge Nicd's to keep them healthy.

I'd be up for keeping power levels "stock" or thereabouts, I think they'd still be pretty quick around the track even with 27T brushed/17.5T brushless motors.

Something to think about Thurs
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  #23  
Old 11-08-2014
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Default RC10

In my opinion, I would want to run a cheapy brushed Motor+ESC and NIMH pack to keep it reasonably crap to drive. To almost make it battle of the driver and not the car, as you see in the 2wd class the KF is just haulin' ass.

Also, people have discussed this in another thread somewhere for a different occasion/track. I will find that and quote some things to see what you guys think?

-Josh
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  #24  
Old 11-08-2014
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Default Batteries and motors!

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Originally Posted by Rtsbasic View Post
Pre 2000 sounds good, it'd make sure the cars are different to what we use today but without being too restrictive, like you guys say some parts just don't exist any more.

IMO, lipo's are handy because everybody already has them. I don't miss having to balance NIMH's or deep discharge Nicd's to keep them healthy.

I'd be up for keeping power levels "stock" or thereabouts, I think they'd still be pretty quick around the track even with 27T brushed/17.5T brushless motors.

Something to think about Thurs
Quote:
Originally Posted by 36racing View Post
In my opinion, I would want to run a cheapy brushed Motor+ESC and NIMH pack to keep it reasonably crap to drive. To almost make it battle of the driver and not the car, as you see in the 2wd class the KF is just haulin' ass.

Also, people have discussed this in another thread somewhere for a different occasion/track. I will find that and quote some things to see what you guys think?

-Josh
I agree 'stock(-ish?' Is a good plan; I can see Richards thoughts on LiPo, but I can also see Josh's keeping it 'reasonably crap' with NiMH and brushed as being a good thing!! I think we do have to do something to level the playing field if we allow all pre-2000 cars, as there is a lot of difference between a 1999 and a 1984 car; at least if the motor and batteries are crap it levels things out a little! I may even be tempted to bring along the Hornet (complete with standard silver can 540 and VERY CRAP standard suspension) to see how that goes!

Josh, if you get time some quotes from other's experience would be most helpful! I've seen a couple of places, I'll see what I can fish out too

Barry
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  #25  
Old 11-08-2014
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Both quotes from Jimmy, this was for the RC10 control class we had at the oOos Series.

Quote:
RC10 Classic class
My 'Vision' for this class is one that sees CLOSE racing between equal cars. The classic gold tub is still in plenty of stock and I'm told by CML that parts will NOT be a problem.
It's been mentioned that 21.5 motors might be too slow and 17.5 more appropriate.

Kit springs, kit shocks, standard steering - link to the servo can be of your choice if you want to replace the crap wire link etc.
Quote:
The only hopups allowed are:
Jconcepts wing buttons, JConcepts wing and nose rods. Jconcepts CF shock towers ONLY if you can prove you're using the kit-standard hole and not one of the optional holes. Jconcepts 1-piece rc10 classic wheels.
Ballrace kit!
Diff balls
Whatever oil/pistons you want
And the best one:
Quote:
You can keep the ultra competitive stuff for the modern cars - keep the old cars rubbish and enjoy their naff-ness
All taken from the oOos RC10 Thread,
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  #26  
Old 11-08-2014
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Default Batteries and Motors, more thoughts...

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Originally Posted by 36racing View Post
Both quotes from Jimmy, this was for the RC10 control class we had at the oOos Series........All taken from the oOos RC10 Thread,
I assume that the 21.5 / 17.5 are brushless? What size tracks were they running on? I didn't go to any of the meetings so don't know.. I did see some pictures, so assume they were outdoor, larger than SWIRC track. We need to find something appropriate for the track we have....

I've been playing this evening with the RC10. I have had a Reedy 3300kV brushless with 2s 30/50c LiPos in it, however, a lot of the much older cars don't have a slipper clutch, the RC10 included. The Classic does have an adjustable ball diff (and bear in mind I'm no expert on the ball diff yet); however I have had to have the diff really tight to avoid over slipping with the brushless setup, to the point where the diff doesn't sound too healthy

I've changed the setup this evening, to NiMH, Tamiya 540RS 23T sport tuned brushed motor and cheap-o MS ESC (£16!), and re-adjusted the diff, and it sounds much happier!
It also feels more 'right' to me to have this setup; I'll leave it in and try the car at the track during practice on Thursday to see how it goes. I'm just very aware that if some folks have much older cars with no slipper, they will be stuck with slow crap motors, or risk trashing their transmission to keep up with the 'newer' slipper clutch wielding 'vintage' cars with hot (or even 'not-so-hot') brushless motors.
It'd be interesting to see how a 17T or 21T brushless motor compares to the 23T brushed I have in... Does anyone have a stock brushless in a car they could bring for comparison?

I'm all up for enjoying the 'naff-ness' of these great cars
Thoughts please!
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  #27  
Old 11-08-2014
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Default And more thoughts...

I have also toyed with the idea of putting my old school Acoms 27mhz electronics in the RC10, but the thought of the long aerial and messing with crystals is just a step too far...

I have found the web site I was thinking of (other than the oOple RC10 class that Josh posted about above) - click through and have a look: http://revival.a1racingclub.com/classic-racing.html

There is too much to cut and paste, however:
I couldn't see a motor limit...
But they are grouping cars by age... Scroll down and look at the cars list for each group...
And they have 'nostalgia points' for those using brushed motors, old school tx/rx, NiMH/NiCd etc..

Mostly appropriate for a big meet with lots of folks, but might be some useful ideas there, for example the RC10 Worlds is two 'age' classes above the classic, as it's transmission etc. is quite different.

Looking forward to getting some classic track time during practice on Thursday (I've got the sticks back to use with the cars too Matt!), and hopefully the wheels and carpet tyres for the Classic will have arrived by then...
Barry
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Saw the revival thing posted somewhere,
would we allow the 'stealth' transmission with the new stuff on it? or would we keep it old school and simple?

-Josh
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Old 12-08-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 36racing View Post
Saw the revival thing posted somewhere,
would we allow the 'stealth' transmission with the new stuff on it? or would we keep it old school and simple?
-Josh
If I recall correctly, the RC10 Worlds (which is vintage/classic re-re), comes with the stealth transmission (Classic doesn't), so it has to be allowed really... But I do think keeping motors and possibly batteries old school is the thing to do.... Discuss! the difficulty is trying to keep an even-ish field with 15/20 years worth of 'vintage' cars that people may bring....
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  #30  
Old 12-08-2014
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Day off today, so I've been doing some reading... Here is some relevant bits from the vintage off road nationals in the US:
( http://vintageoffroadnationals.com/rules/ )

CLASSES
**All classes are limited to cars produced 1994 and earlier. Contact us for other approvals**

2wd Buggy
27 turn ROAR legal stock and 17.5 brushless motors only (under current rules).
Radio gear “electronics” are open.
Tires/wheels are open
Li-Po batteries are allowed.

Classic
Limited to “non-pro” and entry level cars (Tamiya Hornet, Mauri Ninja, Royal Ripper for example)
All 1/10 Buggies, 2wd or 4wd, 2ws or 4ws allowed
Handout Tamiya RS540 motors only
Radio gear “electronics” are open.
Tires/wheels are open (including narrow front tires)
Li-Po batteries are allowed.
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  #31  
Old 12-08-2014
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Quote:
Saw the revival thing posted somewhere,
would we allow the 'stealth' transmission with the new stuff on it? or would we keep it old school and simple?

-Josh
One thing to keep in mind perhaps is not everyone will choose to run an RC10, so staying in the spirit of the guidelines used for RC10 classic's is a good idea IMO but it can't be too limited to one type of car. There's some really interesting reading here, a lot of it comes down to "staying in the spirit" of running a 20yr old RC

I have a 17.5T "stock" brushless motor, but no chassis to fit it to for testing really. Barry your welcome to test it in your RC10 gold pan and see how it goes? could give all of us a bit of a base line for retro performance. Probably a tiny bit slower than the 23T you've got fitted at the moment I'm guessing?

Quote:
2wd Buggy
27 turn ROAR legal stock and 17.5 brushless motors only (under current rules).
Radio gear “electronics” are open.
Tires/wheels are open
Li-Po batteries are allowed.
That sounds really sensible, without really limiting anyone from picking their favourite "back in the day" chassis

From reading what other clubs do, it sounds like limiting the motor is the biggest performance equaliser?

So many things to consider. Matt's gonna have fun with this
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  #32  
Old 12-08-2014
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Ok it appears that i've missed this bit of the forum and have been looking in the other SWIRC page

I'm working at the mo but will be on here when finished

What about if we all agree on a year for the Vintage? Say anything released up to 31st December 1995 or something like that? 1st Jan 1998? Something along them lines?

I guess it all depends on how much fun we all want to have and with what budget? If we said anything before 31st December 1999 that would fall into cars made pre 2000 and would open it up a lot more?

The rules you have posted up Barry are really interesting, thats really good to work from
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Old 12-08-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattV6 View Post
What about if we all agree on a year for the Vintage? Say anything released up to 31st December 1995 or something like that? 1st Jan 1998? Something along them lines?
I guess it all depends on how much fun we all want to have and with what budget? If we said anything before 31st December 1999 that would fall into cars made pre 2000 and would open it up a lot more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtsbasic View Post
One thing to keep in mind perhaps is not everyone will choose to run an RC10, so staying in the spirit of the guidelines used for RC10 classic's is a good idea IMO but it can't be too limited to one type of car. There's some really interesting reading here, a lot of it comes down to "staying in the spirit" of running a 20yr old RC

I have a 17.5T "stock" brushless motor, but no chassis to fit it to for testing really. Barry your welcome to test it in your RC10 gold pan and see how it goes? could give all of us a bit of a base line for retro performance. Probably a tiny bit slower than the 23T you've got fitted at the moment I'm guessing?

That sounds really sensible, without really limiting anyone from picking their favourite "back in the day" chassis

From reading what other clubs do, it sounds like limiting the motor is the biggest performance equaliser?

So many things to consider. Matt's gonna have fun with this
This could very easily turn very complicated!

I think the fundamental rule, as Richard said, is "staying in the spirit" of running a 20yr old RC

We want to keep it as open as possible to begin with, the more Buggies the better! We could always 'massage' the guidelines based on experience at a later date.

My tuppence-worth:

Why not start with...
2wd buggies designed before 2000 (manufactured before 2000, or re-re based on pre-2000 design), motors 'in the vintage spirit!... and leave the rest open

If we find folk are turning up with super-fast brushless 1999 models and win every week, maybe that's the time to go with something like:

2wd pre-2000 buggies:
27 turn ROAR legal stock and 17.5 brushless motors only (under current rules).
Radio gear “electronics” are open.
Tires/wheels are open
Li-Po batteries are allowed.

So just limiting the motor. Just my thoughts based on what we've found online, and comments from Josh, Matt and Richard above

I've put the 3300kV back in the RC10 and had another play with the diff. From what I've read, the 3300kV falls somewhere in between 13.5t - 17.5t sensored brushless, so probably a bit quick... (though I'm sure my driving will limit me more than the equipment!lol). I'll bring the 23t brushed along on Thursday too, and maybe try your 17.5t brushless too Richard. Kinda depends if I get my wheels and tyres in time!
Barry
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  #34  
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Looks like we're all thinking pre-2000 as a general consensus then?

I can't see anyone turning up with a 5.5t motor and an ESC with mad timing to run vintage, if they do they've missed the point!!

I'll bring the 17.5T along Barry, it would be interesting to see a vintage buggy go with it just so we can see what to expect. Do you have any connectors on your ESC -> motor or just soldered straight to the motor?

I've got an Axial 27T brushed motor that can be used for testing as well - I must admit though, I've only ever ran that and the 17.5T on 3s lipo (rock crawler) so I don't know what to expect!
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Old 12-08-2014
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Default RC10

Sweet, should be putting a order in for stuff tomorrow

-Josh
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Old 12-08-2014
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My RC10 T2 - see if you can spot any original parts

Now all we need is a Vintage 1/10 truck class

I must put some time into making it race ready and bring it down one night, I bet it would be fun on the track. Home made shock towers (Lexan), hand polished chassis (originally black). Its seen 4s lipo + barn jumps and survived, but not seen an indoor track before.

Josh - your joining the RC10 club then?
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Old 12-08-2014
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Richard that truck is sweet! Fit some buggy tyres to it and get it down to the track haha. Was that released at the same time as the buggy?

This is all getting really exciting! Ive now got about 7 vintage cars im watching on Ebay but some sellers seem to think their completely worn out 20 year old cars are worth more than gold lol. Its proving pretty hard to work out what one to buy

Have we all agreed on a year to buy up to? It will help me narrow down my search and anyone else looking to buy, ive a few that i'm looking at . I mean there's no immediate rush we can wait until Thursdays race night to talk a few things over. I'm thinking pre 2000 to keep things a little cheaper BUT 95/96/97/98 could all be considered?

The rules that have been posted from the other events are very interesting. Simple and to the point.

If we just start by deciding on

1. Manufactured before date.
2. Motor limit (anything up to the chosen turn)
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Old 13-08-2014
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Ordering today hopefully (RC10 Classic/Gold Tub).
I would say Designed/First Made Before 2000.
17.5 should be okay, but we will have to do a little bit of testing!

-Josh
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Old 13-08-2014
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Hi, just wanted to offer another different opinion on the rules. I think using Nimh or Nicad batteries just creates more hassle and cost, most people have ditched their old batteries in favour of lipos. The same is true with brushed motors, pretty much everyone now uses brushless and having to purchase new motors and escs just creates yet another financial barrier of which there are already too many in R.C. car racing. The same goes for radios, no one wants to go back to the days of making sure everyone is on different crystals etc. In addition to this tyres should be open.

I think as a rough guideline cars should be pre 2000 but with room for exceptions and flexibility on the day so that if people turn up with something they are allowed to use it - a common sense approach would be needed. I also think 2wd and 4wd should race together as its only for fun and the most important thing is getting a good number of cars in the race. Having lots of rules and regulations will only put people off and create more cost and if anything, will make racing more serious and competitive as people do anything they can to squeeze performance out of outdated electrics etc.
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Old 13-08-2014
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In conclusion I suggest:
Any pre 2000 1:10th scale electric chassis, monster trucks, buggies, 2wd and 4wd etc (with room for flexibility on the day)
Open batteries but no higher than 7.4v (2s lipo)
Open esc
Brushless motors from 10.5t or above or any brushed motor
Open tyres
Open radio gear
While this make not make the racing as "fair" as possible, I think rules along these lines would be the most fun, cheapest for the racer, and lead to a higher number of people racing in the class, which is the most important thing.
Thanks, Jon.
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