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Old 25-10-2011
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Default Foam Tyres - the great debate

First let me start by saying I fully understand the clubs view about not wanting a big debate over this but I think a discussion is warranted over this subject. I've started a new thread as not to dilute the offical statement.

I believe Simon should be congratulated for a very innovative idea that will save the average club racer a fortune and compromise nothing in doing so, in fact looking at Simons performance I'm sure he'll agree there is a performance benefit. To buy a pair of 8th on road tyres and cut them costs £6.50 for the pair. That does both ends of the car, add the wheels at lets say £5 an end and thats £16.50 for the season in tyres.

Now lets contrast that to what we're now faced with, these are general rounded figures, tyres, £7.50 rear, £6.50 front, wheels £10 set, inserts £2 a pair. So to go racing on rubber costs £28 a set x 6 rounds and we're looking at £168 per season if we only us 1 set a day (some people were using 2 sets due to high tyre wear). That could be a saving of £151.50! And lets think of those doing 2 classes, £35 in foam, £336 in rubber, thats a £301 cost saving!

I'm not trying to get at anyone or upset anyone but real cost saving innovation, and it is innovation, should be encouraged in these tough financial times. Its not beyond anyone to make a set of these up so I really do not see an issue. Some will use additive? I don't think that risk would be any greater than it is now with rubber. Look at touring cars, they run rubber and have a staggering choice of additives. In fact the buggy guys at Ribble run certain ones on Mini Pins at because it extents the life of the tyre by another 2 meetings. That said I do understand the issue and you'd have to trust us that we aren't going to be idiots and spoil it for ourselves and I'd support anyone caught is banned for life from the club. Should be enough incentive not to do it.

If anyone has reasons why they wouldn't want to enjoy such a saving and performance, Simons car was on rails, I'd be interested to hear about it. Like wise I'd be interested in all thoughts.
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Old 25-10-2011
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as i see it theres no debate there not allowed end of,
of road car off road tires
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Old 25-10-2011
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as i see it theres no debate there not allowed end of,
off road car off road tires
Agreed.
Got to respect the club decision, live with it. Or we could be faced with a control tyres and we don't want that.

BTW im using pre used tyres which Id normally bin. Used Minipins and minispikes, as long as yellow compound work well.
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Old 25-10-2011
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Chris I agree we have to support the clubs decision and adhere to it but its got to be worth the discussion. I found my tyres got worse round by round and while I accept its the cost of racing, if we could avoid it....

I don't really agree with the "off road car so off road tyres". If that was to truely hold water it would have to be "off road cars so race them outside off road not indoor on the mostly flat".

I know this thread isn't going to change the minds of the officals and nor should it but provided its a constructive well meaning discussion I see no harm in having it. I mean if parliment can debate something that was never going to happen why shouldn't we.
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Old 25-10-2011
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Originally Posted by bigred5765 View Post
as i see it theres no debate there not allowed end of,
off road car off road tires


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Originally Posted by andy110m View Post
Chris I agree we have to support the clubs decision and adhere to it but its got to be worth the discussion. I found my tyres got worse round by round and while I accept its the cost of racing, if we could avoid it....

I don't really agree with the "off road car so off road tyres". If that was to truely hold water it would have to be "off road cars so race them outside off road not indoor on the mostly flat".

I know this thread isn't going to change the minds of the officals and nor should it but provided its a constructive well meaning discussion I see no harm in having it. I mean if parliment can debate something that was never going to happen why shouldn't we.
Rationally, your "debate" doesn't hold water because using the same rationale onroad cars should only compete outdoors as well.
When was the last time you saw any indoor 1:1 race (flat or not flat)?

Then, when you factor in that most offroad guys don't have tyre-truers, while overlooking the added investment to do so, the added cost of what you're suggesting makes your original argument totally invalid.

And frankly, once the rules have been decided (what's good for one is good for all, as the rules are the same for all) all you're doing by bringing it up is stirring the pot and trying to start an argument and not "well meaning" at all nor are they doing anyone any good - being as any said "discussions" on the topic were not only likely had prior to the decision, but that's when it's time for those discussions.
After the fact, save it and bring it up next year.

If you're wanting to bring politics, or parliament, into it - then pull on your wig and argue with yourself in the mirror.
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Old 25-10-2011
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They were quicker, so by allowing them the handful who'd first use them would cause the rest to follow or literally drop several finals (or stop attending). So to allow them is forcing an unofficial control tyre, forcing the spending of money. As it is we can choose to use new rubber tyres (yes, expensive), or use worn tyres leftover from elsewhere.

Simon was told he couldn't use foam tyres at Southport too, so im told. Not sure of it is relevant. #justsaying

On the subject of part worns, ive found them to be more consistent than new. New tyres have taken atleast 1 round to 'come-in'. I also know many racers will use tyres at Worksop, then re-use them here for that reason, so costing £0 to use rubber tyres.
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Old 25-10-2011
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They were quicker, so by allowing them the handful who'd first use them would cause the rest to follow or literally drop several finals (or stop attending). So to allow them is forcing an unofficial control tyre, forcing the spending of money. As it is we can choose to use new rubber tyres (yes, expensive), or use worn tyres leftover from elsewhere.

Simon was told he couldn't use foam tyres at Southport too, so im told. Not sure of it is relevant. #justsaying

On the subject of part worns, ive found them to be more consistent than new. New tyres have taken atleast 1 round to 'come-in'. I also know many racers will use tyres at Worksop, then re-use them here for that reason, so costing £0 to use rubber tyres.

In red Chris,

Who and when was i ever told i couldnt use them at Southport?

The batley crew have made the decision and thats fine.
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Old 25-10-2011
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Sorry Si I seem to be wrong. I was watching you and somebody said, can't recall who, so its hearsay.
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Old 25-10-2011
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Sorry Si I seem to be wrong. I was watching you and somebody said, can't recall who, so its hearsay.
Very much hearsay,
but since i asked if i could use foams and the answer at the time was yes, i used them.
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Old 25-10-2011
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Which is fair enough you've done nowt wrong.
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Old 25-10-2011
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as you say if they work, there faster and cheap and could guarantee no use of additives everyone would be on em including Matty, but we cant so as i said pointless talking about it,weve used them in the past many moons ago,but didnt feel there in line with a offroad car, so stopped using them,
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Old 25-10-2011
andy110m andy110m is offline
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Guys , I think we are losing sight that this is toy car racing. That is why its is being done indoor. Be it off road or on road, why should it be so critical what tyres we use when they'd save us a fortune, give a great days racing and are accessable to everyone.

Someone mentioned rules, Simon asked if he could run them and was told yes, there is no tyre rule. So the rules have been set for everyone, we could have all turned up with foams, it was only Simon who had the sense and forsight to do so.

Chris, I think we already have an unoffical tyre control, you have to have good yellow mini's. I know you used part worns but can you honestly say you couldn't have gone quicker with a new scrubbed set?

So thats why while respecting the decision of the club to introduce a tyre policy I think it is worth talking about this, and of course its well meaning, we're all grown ups and understand its not going to change. Its also why I left this thread until they had made a decision.

Finally, at Kayce, the parliment comment was obviously a joke, I wasn't bringing politics into anything but when was the last time you saw a politician wearing a wig? I think you're getting politicians confused with barristers in the law courts
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Old 02-11-2011
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Only just read this, quite a while after seeing how well the foams went at Chadderton.

Personally I'm a bit disappointed as I too saw a fantastic money saving tyre alternative.

As said, this is 'Toy Car' racing, the whole off road comments are nonsense IMO, most of the floor was very, very flat, and it sure as hell wasn't offroad

Also, you wouldn't need a tyre truer !! Back in the day I ran foams indoors, you just chop em down and stick em on.

We all know you need decent tyres to be competitive, tyres are today one of a drivers biggest expenses, shame we are not taking the opportunity to save ourselves a shed load of cash.

Glad I read this before I ordered a couple of sets of foams for the next round...
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Old 02-11-2011
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AndyS

"most of the floor was very, very flat, and it sure as hell wasn't offroad"


Thanks mate, we spent 2 hours on Saturday morning building that track and we thought we had put quite a good mix of off road elements into it.

Obviously not up to your standard then.

Please feel free to turn up on Saturday 19th November and help out building an off road track
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Old 02-11-2011
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I run foams the other week at ribble mainly due to tyre costs so thought I would give them ago. I did not like them running a 5.5t motor in a lazer car was all over the place although they seem to work well on lower motor 2wds for some reason
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Old 02-11-2011
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Damo

Never said the track wasn't good

I just think the 'off road' comments are nonsense, mini pins for example are mainly an indoor tyre. By 'off road' I was referring to the outdoor nature of our hobby, not the specific track features.

I always help build Batley tracks on Sunday race days, but getting Saturday morning off too with 3 small kids to look after would cause a divorce...

I appreciate it lots when other people sort the track out as I know it's not easy - so thank you for that.

Just liked the idea of buying one set of tyres for the whole series
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Old 02-11-2011
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The problem with foams as I see it is where does it end?

I would buy them, then i would buy additive to make them even grippier then you could buy softer compounds and on and on and on.

My reason for going racing is to control a car on a slippy surface and control the slides and test my skill at that against the other drivers.

Foams are for touring cars on flat tracks as you noted in your original comments.

I appreciate there is a cost to buying tyres but last Sunday on my 4WD I had to run used spikes left over from the outdoor series, so you don't HAVE to buy them.

In 2WD I tried spikes and minipins and was outqualified by Lee Fraser who was running spikes all day and he reckoned the more worn they were the better grip they gave.

In the end the club has made a decision, nobody has complained about running normal off road tyres for the previous three years at Chadderton so I don't see why it would be different now?
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Old 02-11-2011
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Fair comments Damo.

So the nightmare I had with my 210 was down to my tyres being half decent, when they should be jiggered

Are the 'slick' rubber tyres that are in the Durango thread banned too then, as they looked like another very cost effective option ?
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Old 02-11-2011
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The problem with foams as I see it is where does it end?

I would buy them, then i would buy additive to make them even grippier then you could buy softer compounds and on and on and on.

My reason for going racing is to control a car on a slippy surface and control the slides and test my skill at that against the other drivers.

Foams are for touring cars on flat tracks as you noted in your original comments.

In the end the club has made a decision, nobody has complained about running normal off road tyres for the previous three years at Chadderton so I don't see why it would be different now?
Yup and yet this seems to be an argument that's brewed up every year at this time of year when everyone moves indoors for the winter.

And the problem with any of the "arguments" is that first some guy comes along and suggests his cheap foam way is the best.
So everybody has to run out and buy foams they don't have, to copy what the first guy did.
Then another guy comes along and he finds a better way, that probably costs more, and the first guy whines.
Then yet another guy comes along and his way trumps everyone elses, he starts winning races, and everyone else starts using that method (while the first two guys are still whining) - and everyone else realizes they made an outlay for three sets of tires (each one faster than the last) and it never ends.
And you've got Tyre Wars.

Meanwhile if everyone's running rubbers, tires they all have access to, it ends up being cheaper for everyone over the long run.
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Old 02-11-2011
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Fair comments Damo.

So the nightmare I had with my 210 was down to my tyres being half decent, when they should be jiggered

Are the 'slick' rubber tyres that are in the Durango thread banned too then, as they looked like another very cost effective option ?
Hi Andy, I found at Chadderton which was the first time I ran the 210, I could make it really safe and consistent but a tad understeery with spikes or I could make it somewhat twitchy and it felt faster with minipins.

In the end the pins were slightly faster in that I was on 13 laps 3 seconds with spikes and with pins I got into the 14 laps 18 seconds.

I am sure with more set up time we can make both tyre combo's faster it just takes a bit of trial and error.

Come over next time and we will try some different setups, I already have another change I want to make to my car to increase rear grip which is giving it maximum toe in on the hubs, but I don't want to lose steering so i am going to play with less castor.
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