Foam Tyres - the great debate

[ASR]

I can see both sides of the argument on this one.

Would it not be simpler and more cost effective to have a control tyre, and for a nominated manufacturer to offer their tyres at a reduced rate for competitors?. Meaning reduced costs for us, eradicating the "which tyre saga" and providing a good marketing opportunity for the chosen brand?

Maybe its not as simple as this in real life i don't know as i have no experience of organizing meetings, just my opinion.

[paulc]

I think if it does become a controlled tyre event theres only Schumacher mini pins and mini spikes i think thats what most people are running anyway or the DBoots terrabites or the new one there bringing out

[Cockerill]

The current method is probably cheapest for the majority, as racers can use their tires elsewhere, and generally the tires that work are readily available to everyone.

Regarding foams, I'm pretty sure it would soon become expensive. You would soon find that as they wear they become better, so you'll start truing new tires down to the optimum diameter, which will then wear down past the optimum and you'll need a new set next week.

You've got the possibility of chunking tires and ruining a set in a matter of minutes, never mind meetings. And the addative thing can't be controlled by Ifmar at a worlds meeting, so how do you expect a club run by very few volunteers with no real scrutineering to manage it? And someone will try it because we're all competitive at heart, and it will provide an advantage.

Finally they make a shed load of mess from what I've seen!

[andy110m]

Or we could just have a open tyre choice and use whatever we like.

I agree with Kayce, we are likely to follow the quickest option but in that given example we have all only bought 3 sets of tyres at less than the cost of rubber tyres.

What could happen now is someone turn up with 6 new sets and run a new set every run. I doubt this would happen but it could and if its was faster where would that leave us? Worksop have a control tyre but they don't limit the amount of sets used.

Foams where a great cheap idea and they've been banned without any consultation with the racers. I'm sure if a vote where to be had at the next round it would be very close. But leaving that aside, then to say they have to be spiked tyres to effectively ban the VBC rubber tyres, looks to me like we are being steered by commerical forces rather than looking after the racers and thats upsetting.

Damo on the point of additive, why don't you use rubber tyre additive on your mini pins, because its banned. We could easily keep that ban and enforcing it would be easy. By the way I too thought the track was really good, thanks very much for the effort and that goes to the club to. Its a really good event that I really enjoyed but I really can't understand this decision. If you like rubber and are happy with them, run rubber, if like me your tighter than cramp and want to save money, lets try foam. Each to there own.

[Cockerill]

Originally Posted by andy110m

I agree with Kayce, we are likely to follow the quickest option but in that given example we have all only bought 3 sets of tyres at less than the cost of rubber tyres.

Or to put it another way, you've turned up to 3 meetings with the wrong tires, so essentially you've actually wasted your money on the 3 sets of cheap tires and the fuel and entry fee to attend three meetings, quite a lot!!

Whereas how it is now, pretty much everyone knows what tires work, there all pretty close in terms of times, so you can tune your car using tiresfor personal preference, and you know you can turn up to the meeting with the correct set of tires, so no money wasted on entry or fuel

[andy110m]

The person cheating would be using a lot of kitchen towel. They have to be dried before used on the track to get the real benefit. But to control the use of additive, spot checks, are your tyres wet or damp? If so, sorry your out of the meeting and the series. I'd do that if needs be.

It sounds harsh but I'm sure it'd be incentive not to do it. I'm sure someone would say I ran it in the pits and knocked over some water, really an accident that covered all the tyres width with the same amount of liquid. Sorry no middle ground, you're gone.

I don't understand foams without additive been messy?

[Cockerill]

If it was really that simple to detect addative I'm sure the proffessionals of this industry wouldn't have problems detecting it at the worlds, but if you read any race report from the last 2-3 1/8th worlds you'll soon realise that the addative can't be tech'd without a complex machine.

In my very limited experience of foam tires, they generate a lot of black dust when they wear (regardless of addative), this has to go somewhere and be cleaned up by someone, another job for them very few club volunteers.

[andy110m]

3 wasted sets? no, maybe not optimum but certainly better than rubber and they can be used in alot of clubs. In the northwest, Ribble valley, Roundabout and Southport are all local clubs that allow foam tyres. And at £6.50 a car set its still looking good. That 3 sets will allow racing till we go back outdoors around the end of March.

Tom, how many sets did you use at Chadderton and just out of interest how many do you think you'll use this weekend at Worksop?

If rubber is the way forward why don't we have a one set per day rule, what you use in practice is what says on all day. Mark them up after practice and away we go. At least that would minimise the cost.

[Cockerill]

The problem with marking up tires is that it requires a lot more effort on behalf of the club, which just doesn't have the man power. And people may have 2 or 3 part worn sets that they want to use in one day.

I use 1 set per meeting at Worksop and Chadderton, as do most of the A finalists that I'm aware of. The set I used at Chadderton has also done two club meetings a week since!!

[andy110m]

At the worlds teams are going to great lengths to bring in tyres in sealed bags, pre dried and I agree, at that stage its very hard to detect. But it has to be applied every run and we are all pitting in a close environment. I think it would be easy because left to dry it would take hours, so you'll see people applying, having wet tyres sat and then drying. Thats how they sorted at the worlds, made everyone do all tyre prep in one room together. It became self policing.

Tyre dust, yes they do produce tyre dust like every tyre we use, rubber or foam. Have a look inside a touring car bodyshell after a run and you'll see masses of the stuff off rubber tyres. Its the same for buggys, it just doesn't have anywhere to settle.

[andy110m]

I do agree I can't see an easy why of doing the tyre marking unless we made it part of booking in. We all queue up so couldn't we make that part of the process? I don't know but I can't understand why you'd want to use 2 or 3 worn sets in a day unless it was for a performance advantage?

I got the impression that the top drivers were using 2 sets, I spoke to one drivers who told me, a part worn set for practice, new for round 1 to 3 then another new set for round 4 and the finals.

Now if that is or does become common place...

[kayce]

Originally Posted by andy110m

3 wasted sets? no, maybe not optimum but certainly better than rubber......

Except for the fact, if reading all over literally everyone's running the same types of rubbers - and how many offroaders have foams, or a trueing machine?

Originally Posted by andy110m

....and they can be used in alot of clubs. In the northwest, Ribble valley, Roundabout and Southport are all local clubs that allow foam tyres.

I always luv this excuse, because it doesn't take into account that literally nobody races with several different clubs.

[andy110m]

I and a good few at Chadderton race at all those clubs? (when the missus let me of course - I've needed to be good to play out on a Wednesday, Friday and Sunday!)

For the last time you don't need a tyre truer. Just stick them on, its really easy.

Cut them to width with knife. Stretch over wheel. Stick a screwdriver inbetween the tyre and wheel. pour in glue, rotate screwdriver around the wheel. Pull out screwdriver. Job done.

[Cockerill]

Trust me, marking up 120 sets of tires will take a while, and needs a dedicated person for the job.

People may have a part worn set from Worksop and another part worn set from chadderton the week before, instead of putting 1 new set on they might prefer to use both the part worn sets to save on money. You may start the day on pins, but then want to try spikes, there's a whole host of reasons of why you might want to use worn tires. Restricting everyone to A single set of tires almost ensures they have to have a new set.

I can 100% assure that I only used 1 set per meeting, as do the majority at worksop that im aware of. If your going to use more than 1 set you'd stagger them between meetings. So you start the day on a set, and put a new set on for round 4, then you'll use that set at the next meeting until round 3, then put a new set on for round 4. Works out a at 7 sets over 6 meetings.

[Cockerill]

Originally Posted by andy110m

For the last time you don't need a tyre truer. Just stick them on, its really easy

You don't need one yet.... If foams were allowed and people found an advantage in truing tires they would do it!!

As an example, if foams were allowed, I'd probably turn up with 3-4 different sets to test different things (hardness, diameter, width). I wouldn't enjoy it, but if there was an advantage to be gained I'd try to find it. As it is at the minute I turn up with 1 set of tires and know I'm good to go for the day! The advantage to be gained at the minute comes from car setup and driver skill.

[kayce]

Originally Posted by andy110m

I and a good few at Chadderton race at all those clubs? (when the missus let me of course - I've needed to be good to play out on a Wednesday, Friday and Sunday!)

For the last time you don't need a tyre truer. Just stick them on, its really easy.

Cut them to width with knife. Stretch over wheel. Stick a screwdriver inbetween the tyre and wheel. pour in glue, rotate screwdriver around the wheel. Pull out screwdriver. Job done.

Well, that explains everything then - YOU want to only have to buy one set of tires to run at three tracks, meanwhile overlooking the other Batley guys that will have to go out and buy foams just to race you.

For the last time you do need a tyre truer. The last "stick 'em on, it's easy" guy died sometime back in the mid 1980s.

Originally Posted by Cockerill

As an example, if foams were allowed, I'd probably turn up with 3-4 different sets to test different things (hardness, diameter, width). I wouldn't enjoy it, but if there was an advantage to be gained I'd try to find it. As it is at the minute I turn up with 1 set of tires and know I'm good to go for the day!

And it would turn into a tyre-buying contest - just like in 12th scale - with guys truing them down to thing little strips and making one-run tyres.... and then any supposed savings scenario goes right out the window with a bunch of tyre dust.

[total newbie]

Hi Tom, from ear wigging trackside the control tire is going to be dBoots, so it seems your trying to defend something that your sponsor/boss won't like.
From reading and hearing trackside all this it appears that one person is to blame and that's who ever first started a complaint about the foams when the tires choice was open and permission was given to use them.
It appears to boil down to keep the sponsors happy and forget the drivers pockets.
Jake.

[Cockerill]

I wasn't aware that there was goin to be a control tire, my understanding was it was going to be an open tire event, so long as the tires are a rubber style spiked tire.

I'm trying to defend the choice to not accept foam tires, as I believe as a racer it will make the events less enjoyable, increas the costs and put people off attending.

If we were to accept foam tires I'd be running contact foams, a Schumacher based company, so that wouldn't be a problem, doesn't mean I think it's a good idea though.

[Chrislong]

The beauty of Chadderton, is that the surface doesn't require new tyres. I find new tyres slower than 1 runners, and those 1 runners last til the centre is literally bald.... so im using at round 2 the set I used at round 1, which had also been used at a club meeting before that.... and im not dissadvantaged by it. When this set of tyres #1 wear, I'll put some worn Minispikes on from outdoors... £0 additional cost incurred.... other racers must be doing same as me?

To allow foams, I would be dissadvantaged with rubber as would anybody else, I would feel obliged to use them to keep up costing me money.... likely id just not turn up though. Im sure others would feel the same. Im racing chadderton as its only costing me fuel and booking in, its a chilled out meeting, no hassle.

Control tyre I don't mind as long as they're rubber, Id buy them once, make them last like I do now.

Controlling numbers used is pointless here, as part worn tyres are of no dissadvantage. Let the racers use as many new as they want, they have no advantage. Controlling numbers used is only worth considering if using new gave a big advantage.

[tony12795]

@ Total Newbie

dBoots are not the controlled tyre, there is no controlled tyre, they only support the meeting with discount at the track shop.

I used one set of tyres all day like Tom and I did this all last year, but from memory I think some people are racing at Worksop with one set and the using that set at Chadderton as I think there better at Chadderton warn (Nearly Bald).

Tony