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Old 23-03-2012
Legacy555 Legacy555 is offline
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Default Scrap Clubman in favour of formula racing

Hi all,

There has been much talk of late about modifying the rules to allow the faster Clubman drivers to compete with the slower modified drivers.

The aim of any amendment to the rules would be to promote competition in the "mid" field and to isolate and protect new racers from being blown out of the water by the faster drivers in the same class.

So, I'm going to make the following proposal (in time, once developed) to the committee for adoption into the rules for this year's outdoor championhip - and by default it will more than likely be adopted into weekly racing. This is only an concept for an amendment and it can be tweaked based on the feedback that we get here and at racing before it is implemented.
  1. Scrap the Clubman class, and put everyone into the modified class - this will fill up heats more and avoid marshalling issues related to 2 or 3 car races.
  2. Give everyone new formula gradings from F1 to F5. F1 will be a National Championship winner - any motor, free esc timing. F2 will be drivers with any motor and free esc timing at are calcluated to be on average a certain percentage slower than the lead F1 driver. F3 will be drivers with any motor, but no esc timing allowed who are again a certain percentage slower than the lead F1 driver. F4 will be drivers with 10.5 or greater motors and no esc timing who are a certain percentage slower than the lead F1 driver. F5 will be drivers with 10.5 or greater motors and no esc timing who have less than 1 full years racing experience.
  3. Prizes will be awarded to top 3 overall and top 2 or 3 in each formula instead of by Modified / Clubman.
This concept is really focused on F3 - The modified drivers who are 2 laps+ off the lead modified drivers pace will be catagorised as F3, as will the current leading clubman drivers. So we should have 8 - 10 drivers in this section all on a very similar pace.

....... I;ve to think more about this, but thought I'd get the initial idea out there for general digestion.
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Old 23-03-2012
Legacy555 Legacy555 is offline
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Just to add to this,

We would also have to incorporate a system of progression, so tha the winner of any formula would move up to next formula in the following year.... etc.
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Old 23-03-2012
celticpanman celticpanman is offline
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Hi. I personally will be staying in clubman. It is more fun,closer racing, more competitors

I feel that if someone is fast enough and wants to go faster GO MODIFIED.
This was proposed before, discussed and it was felt BETTER FOR THE CLUB to leave the classes as they are.
Also if a driver wins a championship they have the choice ( not the club) if they want to progress.
They might not want to, they might only have won it by a close margin and was lucky

This was voted on by those who turned up to vote on it.

Let's see
Graham
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Old 23-03-2012
Legacy555 Legacy555 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celticpanman View Post
Hi. I personally will be staying in clubman. It is more fun,closer racing, more competitors

I feel that if someone is fast enough and wants to go faster GO MODIFIED.
This was proposed before, discussed and it was felt BETTER FOR THE CLUB to leave the classes as they are.
Also if a driver wins a championship they have the choice ( not the club) if they want to progress.
They might not want to, they might only have won it by a close margin and was lucky

This was voted on by those who turned up to vote on it.

Let's see
Graham
Hi Graham,
Good to see that we're getting the discussion rolling.
This doesn't have to be about going faster or slower - its more about pitching drivers of equal ability together. It also reduces marshalling issues by getting rid of heats with 2 or 3 cars in them.

It will allow drivers like Ciaran, Lucy, Adam, Aaron and all other new drivers to win something without having to beat Ivan or David. Similarly, Ken, Jack and Dave would all have a championship within a championship to race for.

Whether we limit motors or ban esc timing for whatever formulas can all be worked out at a later stage - it's just about putting the feelers out to see what people think.

I understand your viewpoint, but Ivan, Lee, David and Kevin all seem to be interested in how this could be worked out.
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Old 23-03-2012
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Hi will just to clear what you pupose is in a roundabout way is keeping junior racers in a class of there own at 10.5 and senior clubclass go modified with f3 f2 racers
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Old 23-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sv1keith View Post
Hi will just to clear what you pupose is in a roundabout way is keeping junior racers in a class of there own at 10.5 and senior clubclass go modified with f3 f2 racers
Hi Keith,
At the moment we have 2 classes, Clubman and Modified
Modified = F1, F2 and F3
Clubman = F4 and F5.
We award 2 sets of prizes every season - one for clubman, one for modified.

What I propose is that we have 5 prizes. Get rid of the Clubman and modified system and use

F5 = new racers (less than 1 full year experience)
F4 = better than F5 but worse than F4
F3 = better than F4 but worse than F3
F2 = better than F3 but worse than F1
F1 = best drivers

We would have to work out the technical regulations for each formula.
F5 and F4 would be the same as current clubman - 10.5 motor and no esc advanced timing.
F3 could be 10.5 with timing or faster motor with no timing or something else.
F2 and F1 would run with the current modified regulation.
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Old 23-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legacy555 View Post
Hi Keith,
At the moment we have 2 classes, Clubman and Modified
Modified = F1, F2 and F3
Clubman = F4 and F5.
We award 2 sets of prizes every season - one for clubman, one for modified.

What I propose is that we have 5 prizes. Get rid of the Clubman and modified system and use

F5 = new racers (less than 1 full year experience)
F4 = better than F5 but worse than F4
F3 = better than F4 but worse than F3
F2 = better than F3 but worse than F1
F1 = best drivers

We would have to work out the technical regulations for each formula.
F5 and F4 would be the same as current clubman - 10.5 motor and no esc advanced timing.
F3 could be 10.5 with timing or faster motor with no timing or something else.
F2 and F1 would run with the current modified regulation.
I certainly agree that F3 should be 10.5 with timing or faster motor with no timing.......this would allow you to move up initially without purchasing a new motor.
As for the change in classes it is a personal opinion but i would much prefer Wills proposal as there is a constant push to improve yourself and a structure to do so. With the current system there is little incentive to move from winning clubman races to making up the numbers in modified. The point about full heats and lack of marshals is well made too.
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Old 23-03-2012
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hi will,i support this idea.i have found recently that all im doing in modified is tooling around getting out of the way of faster drivers with no one really to race against.moving to this system would put me in with people who i could race against and make racing a whole lot more intesting.the one issue is the no timing in f3 grade with mod motors(i can see your reasoning behind this) but dont think it will work,but thats a discussion for another day.keep up the good work
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Old 23-03-2012
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Hi Wil,

I think this is a great idea. It allows every racer to race with a similarly paced competitor.

My personal choice for F3 rules is keep the 10.5 turn motor limit but you can mod the ESC.

I think the existing Clubman and Modified structure is not beginner friendly, which in my opinion is a section the club needs to nurture and support.

That's my bit
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Old 23-03-2012
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Now we are getting somewhere.
Good idea Will it all looks very good .
Having tried a 10.5 motor with adv timing last weekend I would suggest F3 to be 10.5 motor with esc timing allowed OR any motor with no esc timing allowed.This would allow anyone to move into F3 without having to spend on new gear .
Now just work out your class formula
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Old 23-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartstuffer View Post
Now we are getting somewhere.
Good idea Will it all looks very good .
Having tried a 10.5 motor with adv timing last weekend I would suggest F3 to be 10.5 motor with esc timing allowed OR any motor with no esc timing allowed.This would allow anyone to move into F3 without having to spend on new gear .
Now just work out your class formula
hi ivan,one problem i forsee with the no timing in mod is that if your runing a mod motor and you want to go faster instead of just uping the timing you just fit a faster motor,you arent actually limiting anything and ultimitly all you will do is end up with people runing motors they cant handle or adding to expense and also a greater difference in speed(10.5 vs 6.5) i currently run an 8.5 with a small amout of timing
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Old 23-03-2012
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Hi Will,
I would support this idea in principal too.
How would you see a normal race day working?

F1 and 2 drivers together in the same heats,
F3 drivers in another heat
F4 and 5 drivers together in heats
And finals split the same

Or would you see it F1, 2 and 3 together and f4 and 5 together?


I think limit it to 10.5 motors and allow timing, this should in general allow a driver move up without buying new motors.

The idea being, as an f4 or 5 you can concentrate on learning to drive and basic set up stuff, an f3 can learn more about set up including ESC setup improve driving all without buying new gear.

How about we run the next couple of ordinary club day in this format to see how it pans out? This should give us a good idea if its going to work or not. Maybe if some of the modified guys are to run in the F3 class we could just agree on the day they are not to use timing, and the clubman guys who run in it must keep their 10.5s and can use timing, again just to see how it works.


Cheers
Lee
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Old 23-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doktor View Post
........

How would you see a normal race day working?

F1 and 2 drivers together in the same heats,
F3 drivers in another heat
F4 and 5 drivers together in heats
And finals split the same

Or would you see it F1, 2 and 3 together and f4 and 5 together?
........
From reading all of this I think we're getting close to a good solid idea.

They way I would see it is that for qualifying, drivers would be in heats based on their F grade along with the number of drivers at the meeting.

Extreme example:
So one F5 Driver three F4 drivers and one F3 driver, with 5 F2 drivers.

The F5/F4/F3 drivers would all be in one heat, the F2 drivers would be in one heat, that would give 5 drivers in each heat.

The idea is to have as many full heats as possible, rather than 2 full mod & clubman heats, with 2 half-full, mod an clubman. It would be better for all racing / marshalling to have 3 full heats, seeded on F grading.

But for the finals it would be based on overall qualifying positions regardless of F status.

So in a championship situation, any of the above 10 drivers could TQ/Win the meeting and score top points for the event. This would include the F5 driver(s).

So using the above example the A-final could be a mix of F5/4/3/2 drivers, similar with the B-final. So on a good day a F5/4/3 can make the A-final, where the worst then can do is last, but best is to win the meeting. But with that the worst a F2(F1) driver could do would be last overall in the meeting.

What I can see this stopping is anyone (in 2wd any way with the numbers we have) automatically making the A-final.

But look at this for an example. A single F4 driver makes qualifying position 8 of an 8 car A-final, finishing last, 8 position in the final, other 7 drivers of the A-final are all F2(1) drivers. In the B-final, there is a mixture of F-grades (F2/3/4).

So overall the F4 driver gets the points for finishing in 8th place in the meeting. But more importantly they are the top finishing F4 driver of the meeting. So if this was a one-off meeting. That F4 driver would be the top F4 driver of the meeting and win the F4 class of the meeting, along side the 8th over-all placing.

MiCk B. :-)
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Old 23-03-2012
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I think you have to forget about the timing issue for F3. As Tony said you could turn off timing but just stick in a hotter motor to get the speed. I'm currently setup up with a 7.5 with 13 degrees advanced timing and 16 boosted. If I took that off I could just go for 6.5 or even a crazy 5.5 with no timing. My current setup is quick enough but importantly everything stays cool.
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Old 23-03-2012
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A lot of very interesting veiw points on the subject. My tuppence worth is, F4+F5 10.5t no timing
F3 10.5t with timing allowed
F2+F1 Anything goes

The top 8 drivers, regardless of formula after qualifying to contest the A main. The next 8 drivers to contest the B final and so on. This would guarantee a good mix of drivers in each final. No marshalling issues either this way. Keep it simple lads.
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Old 24-03-2012
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You`ve hit the nail on the head Dave
We might actually get Ian out of retirement
I blame him for getting me into this 2wd stuff, giving me a go of his x6 that time.
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Old 24-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartstuffer View Post
You`ve hit the nail on the head Dave
You can still have Wills idea of a trophy for each formula winner at the end of the season with my idea too. Best F1/F2 Driver, Best F3 Driver, Best F4 Driver and Best F5 driver. So in effect 4 championships within the one championship so to speak. Also at the end of the championship, the best F5 becomes F4 for the following season and the best F4 move to F3. This is where the progression stops at club level, though I would suggest, only on winning a National championship in your Formula can you become( if you wish) an F2 or F1 driver. I hear what Graham is saying regarding the enjoyment he has for the class he is in at the moment. My idea would safeguard everyone because it is optional if you want to move up to F1/2. At the end of the day, we are still a relatively small club, we don'y want to be putting anyone off with too many rules and regulations. As previously said, KEEP IT SIMPLE.
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Old 24-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h0m3sy View Post
You can still have Wills idea of a trophy for each formula winner at the end of the season with my idea too. Best F1/F2 Driver, Best F3 Driver, Best F4 Driver and Best F5 driver. So in effect 4 championships within the one championship so to speak. Also at the end of the championship, the best F5 becomes F4 for the following season and the best F4 move to F3. This is where the progression stops at club level, though I would suggest, only on winning a National championship in your Formula can you become( if you wish) an F2 or F1 driver. I hear what Graham is saying regarding the enjoyment he has for the class he is in at the moment. My idea would safeguard everyone because it is optional if you want to move up to F1/2. At the end of the day, we are still a relatively small club, we don'y want to be putting anyone off with too many rules and regulations. As previously said, KEEP IT SIMPLE.
one problem i do see with keeping f3 to 10.5 is that those of us who are currently f3 have either got to move up to f2(personaly not quick enough)or stop runing mod(which i have no interest in)on the tracks we run there isnt going to that big a difference between mod and timed 10.5.this can be seen in the results of the last club roundhttp://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f4r1.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMC...mtg36/f3r1.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMC...mtg36/f3r2.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMC...mtg36/f4r2.htm
ivan would have finished ahead of me with no timing in all of the finals that day
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Old 24-03-2012
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Hi all

There seems to be interest for this.

I would see the current format f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 as been to complicated

I would see the future as probably based around the following

Class 1 10.5 t no timing on esc or motor

Class 2 10.5t with timing or else any motor with no timing on either motor or esc

Class 3 Mod Whatever you want to run

Now i do not know enough about the current esc or brushless motors setup as to what is faster or better so a tweaking will be needed

This would mean only 3 classes to compete during the year.

When you join or start of in the club you start class 1. ( unless you come from another club where your ability is known )

If you win that class YOU HAVE THE OPTION AS A MEMBER TO GO UP to class 2. You do not automatically go up.

It is your choice if you want to better yourself or not.

You can only progress up the class rank when you win the class you are in ( if you do it in the first year great if it takes 3 then it takes 3 ).

When it comes to making heats to avoid 2 or 3 cars in a heat the fastest drivers in class 2 can make up numbers with class 3 and the slower drivers can make numbers up with class 1

this would help marshalling issues aswell.

We must keep this simple and not over regulated. to much of this WILL TURN PEOPLE OFF THIS IS after all a HOBBY

Simple is best

how would this work

graham
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Old 24-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony6187 View Post
one problem i do see with keeping f3 to 10.5 is that those of us who are currently f3 have either got to move up to f2(personaly not quick enough)or stop runing mod(which i have no interest in)on the tracks we run there isnt going to that big a difference between mod and timed 10.5.this can be seen in the results of the last club roundhttp://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f4r1.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMC...mtg36/f3r1.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMC...mtg36/f3r2.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMC...mtg36/f4r2.htm
ivan would have finished ahead of me with no timing in all of the finals that day
I don't really see your point here Tony, if you reckon your not quick enough for F2 then what is the problem with staying in F3? You said yourself there isn't much difference between running a 10.5t boosted as opposed to a Mod motor round the tracks that we race on. At least if your in F3 with 10.5 boosted you have a chance of winning something at the end of the year if your good enough.
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