When is a 2wd not a 2wd

[Gaz_Stanton]

Does that also count as unfair practice for the 4wd event? What about the 'track not open 7 days before a National' rule? If the 4wd event was on the Sunday, were these drivers running 4wds not contravening that rule by running the same car on the Saturday?

EDIT: No it does not.
The rule simply states that -- "The track cannot be used (for any purpose) in the seven days prior to a National event".
The "National event" starts on the Sat. and is considered as a "Two Day Event".

Same with the Euros too. The eventual winner had already done 15+ races around the same track with a 4wd chassis before everyone else had got theirs out of the suitcase...

[kartstuffer]

What other set up changes are done to a 410 , apart from taking the front driveshafts out are made, I tried this on grass last year and it didn't work but we now run on indoor astro only so I might try it again?What front tyres are used in this config.

[Origineelreclamebord]

Originally Posted by woOdy

Maybe it should say that we can not have a second gearbox in a 2wd car. Dont know how to school this to be honest

Then you can ask yourself when something is one gearbox... If you take the design of the Losi XXX4, both diffs are enclosed and has it's belts running through one large tunnel.

Anyway, I'd like to mention something about this poll: I think this poll doesn't make the distinction on a few key differences / what specification is a topic of discussion: 4WDs in 2WD altogether, or flywheels running at the opposite end of the driven axles (front flywheels on RWD buggies).

I mean, you could make it as simple as saying 4WDs running in 2WD should have either front or rear diff removed - though here too I don't agree on banning whatever seems to work well.

[DerbyDan]

Originally Posted by Mike2222

Lets not forget that 2wd cars were becoming 4wd since the days of the original rc10, thanks to an aftermarket conversion. I dont think they were banned.

This has got to be one of the most interesting debates/threads on here for a long while....

Ironically the 2nd gen CATXL back in 1987 was offered as a 2wd version ...... so as always, nothing is completely 'new'

[Dudders]

Originally Posted by woOdy

I voted NO but this is the rule :-

23. CONSTRUCTION RULES - GENERAL
23.1 Two wheel drive cars (2WD) are those having only one pair of driven wheels on the same axle. Either the front or rear axle may be driven. Four wheel drive (4WD) cars are those having all four wheels driven.

Maybe it should say that we can not have a second gearbox in a 2wd car. Dont know how to school this to be honest

So what if the front house could be purchased aftermarket as one solid (hollow) casing..... Don't think that's enough.

[WHITTLER555]

I ran my DEX410 in 2wd mode at the Stotfold National but I took the front diff, propshaft and driveshafts out.

It just felt easier to drive on the mega high grip track at Stotfold.

I have previously tried it on grass at the South Shields regional, it was not nearly as good as my DEX210, I think due to having a gear diff in the 410. it was just too hard to drive compared to the 210 with the ball diff.

I have also tried it at Southport which is multi surface, it was good on the astro but very poor on the Tarmac and concrete sections.

At Stotfold i ended up in the same final as my mate, Jim, we are always in the same finals! Its almost a conspiracy! He was driving a 210, so it made no difference in the long run.

Was anyone in the A final at Stotfold any different to normal, not really, the same 20 people are vying for the A final, the rest of us are just making up the numbers as always.

So in conclusion, 410 2wd good on high grip astro, terrible on anything else.

[adey]

I first want to say that I voted no to having a 4wd chassis in the 2wd class but I have had a re think and if all front drivetrain is removed I cant see any room for argument. Also, what about converting a 2wd to a 4wd. I remember seeing a b4 converted once. Would that be banned on merit ?.

[Lee24h]

A 4wd with front driveshafts taken out is not a 2wd car in the class its 4wd with front driveshafts taken out
Also i like the thought of banning extreme mid motor cars with a maximum distance foward a motor can be it seems the brca have let the rules for buggies slide and still strict as ever in touring cars and such classes

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Lee24h

A 4wd with front driveshafts taken out is not a 2wd car in the class its 4wd with front driveshafts taken out
Also i like the thought of banning extreme mid motor cars with a maximum distance foward a motor can be it seems the brca have let the rules for buggies slide and still strict as ever in touring cars and such classes

ok 1st thing the BRCA is not them and its not all the sections, each section is run by guys we as BRCA members put there who carry out rules WE have voted for,

second, where in tc rules is there a limit on 2wd/4wd and where the motor is placed?

[qatmix]

Eh I dont think there isn't a rule about motor position, as chassis like the TA05ms and the Hot bodies TC-FD etc wouldn't pass

[KooBee]

Originally Posted by Lee24h

A 4wd with front driveshafts taken out is not a 2wd car in the class its 4wd with front driveshafts taken out
Also i like the thought of banning extreme mid motor cars with a maximum distance foward a motor can be it seems the brca have let the rules for buggies slide and still strict as ever in touring cars and such classes

Not that this debate would concern me as we run on dirt here and no-one would want to race a 4wd car as 2wd here, but I think a car that has two wheel drive is a two wheel drive car, not a four wheel drive car. No matter if the parts to make the car came from a 4wd car. 2wd is 2wd. This is just my opinion, of course, I just don't see the logic why it would be 4wd...

A whole different question is wether these cars should be allowed or not. But I just think the cars are 2wd no matter how you look at it.



Oh, and as another comment about fwd cars as they were mentioned in the thread as well, the worlds has a rule that fwd cars must run in the 4wd class. This is kinda stupid, as they are 2wd. But on the other hand, if one looks at the rules more carefully, it specifically states that 2wd cars must be real wheel drive, thus fwd cars can't compete in 2wd (rwd) class.4wd class specifies that 4wd and fwd cars can be used. So in fact it is not that stupid rule after all. Maybe the class should just be named RWD instead of 2WD. Well, that's the IFMAR rules, I don't know about BRCA rules...

[hotrodchris]

Is the main issue that if the front diff is left in and just the dog bones removed the car reacts in the air like a 4wd not a 2wd and also turns in easier due to the diff still rotating in the front?

I have an XB4 but have never run it as a 2wd as also have a DB1.

[MartP]

Personally, I don't care if a 4wd is used as a 2wd so long as the whole front drivetrain is not powered, i.e. there's no powered rotating mass at the front of the car.

So it would be interesting to know if those folks who ran their 4wd's as 2wd at Stotfold only removed the front driveshafts or whether they disabled the whole front drivetrain. If they are finding that a powered rotating mass at the front of the car aids performance then that is where I would have concerns.

My thought is this: if 2wd cars are allowed to have a powered rotating mass at the front then where does this end? Do we really want the next generation of 2wd buggies to have powered rotating masses at the front? Do we really want to go out and buy collections of different weight 'front gyros'?

IMO, the parts that the motor powers should only be those directly concerned with the powered wheels themselves, but how you word that rule in a rulebook would require some thought, but I am sure they have achieved it in full-scale 2wd racing cars!

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by KooBee

Simply use a rule which prevents chassis change if it isn't broken, and if it is, it must be replaced with the same model chassis. This would prevent at least the most radical "different car for each heat" sort of thing... Or at least they would have to fit all the different layouts on the same chassis.

Similar rule is used at the worlds.

Like that one. I use a sub-plate to retain the front and rear gearboxes so I can change at will from 2WD to 4WD/2WD by swapping the gear casings and suspension and retain the same chassis. How do I know I would like this rule? It's been done before!

Originally Posted by Col

There seems to be some confusion over the BRCA 1/10 off road definition of modified.

Correct! Modified refers to the definition of the motor in use, not the chassis in use. There used to be a Stock class in Off-Road that was for sealed-can motors. It died out for too many reasons to bore you all with here, and Modified was used all round.

'Modified' comes from the practice in the late 1970s of taking standard (Stock) Mabuchi and Igarashi motors apart and rewinding and balancing them - modifying them. This was given the boost it needed when Yokomo came out with the first open-brush endbell motor.

Originally Posted by woOdy

I voted NO but this is the rule :-

23. CONSTRUCTION RULES - GENERAL
23.1 Two wheel drive cars (2WD) are those having only one pair of driven wheels on the same axle. Either the front or rear axle may be driven. Four wheel drive (4WD) cars are those having all four wheels driven.

Maybe it should say that we can not have a second gearbox in a 2wd car. Dont know how to school this to be honest

Another good try, so I'll just use flexible drives directly to the wheel concerned and then take them out for '2WD'. Since there is no gearbox housing it's a 2WD car. Alternatively, I could design a system where there is no gearbox as such, just a hole into which I can bolt a separate housing which contains all the inputs and outputs I need to make it into a 4WD car.

Originally Posted by Lee24h

A 4wd with front driveshafts taken out is not a 2wd car in the class its 4wd with front driveshafts taken out
Also i like the thought of banning extreme mid motor cars with a maximum distance foward a motor can be it seems the brca have let the rules for buggies slide and still strict as ever in touring cars and such classes

As for the first bit, look at your own rules as in the quote above. There is no restriction on the chassis design at all for a 2WD car within the dimensions in the rules. A 4WD with the shafts taken out is a 2WD car from a rules perspective!

I am trying to point out that making rules to stop this practice is very, very difficult; not trying to ridicule the posts or posters. As MattW said earlier, most, if not all of this has been done before and there are plenty of people who know how to tae a rule book and work around it. RC is as full of Colin Chapmans and Adrian Neweys as full-size racing!

I could not agree more with your second comment! We get some stick in the 12th Section for having strict rules on body shells, blinky speedos and the like. But, we do not have a bastardisation of our cars (LMP and GT) that flies in the face of the rule Off-Road has "Cars entered for Off Road competitions will be reasonable representations of full size cars generally accepted as being suitable for Rallycross, Rallying, Trail and Desert races." - a cab-forward complies with that??!!!

I think it is significant that your Section is one where the Construction Rules come after all the reams of stuff on who the Chairman is, how the Committee is run and how you run your meetings. Maybe this situation arises because your Section has got its priorities in reverse?? Just my thoughts...

This is a great debate - thanks for letting an outsider have a say or two!!

[M.Andrews]

Originally Posted by kartstuffer

What other set up changes are done to a 410 , apart from taking the front driveshafts out are made, I tried this on grass last year and it didn't work but we now run on indoor astro only so I might try it again?What front tyres are used in this config.

I tried my 410 in 2wd last week. I ran 2wd cut staggers up front(no inserts),lighter diff oil in the rear,either 1000 or 3000. Going quite nice with the tyres and rear diff changes!. Car was undriveable with the 4wd spikes up front and 10000 diff oil(which I ran in 4wd mode).

I ran it with no front drive shafts,no front diff/centre front cvd which meant it IS A PROPER 2WD!.
This is my view on the 4wd/2wd thread,no front diff(and drive shafts obviously!),with the schumacher k1 without the belt and diff up front.

[Lee24h]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

ok 1st thing the BRCA is not them and its not all the sections, each section is run by guys we as BRCA members put there who carry out rules WE have voted for,

second, where in tc rules is there a limit on 2wd/4wd and where the motor is placed?

Mark
There are lots of rules in touring cars not so much with chassis construction however shells ride height not blinky or blinky then theres stock and open class and cars must represent real cars which they do sort of more than buggy shells represent real buggies also this is tunrelated however i do not understand why its the norm to run open rules now and i see more and more beginners asking what motors and stuff people saying i run 6.5t or 7.5t etc and then the beginner coming the next week with a stupidly quick motor and binning it and not racing for weeks to get spares and also not being able to control they cars near others so why not bring stock classes back for buggies
But back to the subject make buggies all rear motor and say thats the rules it is a sure fire way to stop 4wd cars with front axles taken out running and also as for trucks make them all mid motor the engines on real sc trucks are before the driven axle whereas on the buggies its after.
Having said this i do enjoy driving my mid motor mod motor buggy

[12-nitroman]

if you ask me, some of the BRCA rules are a little too much.

[dodgydiy]

why such a fuss about 4wd with the front shafts removed now when people were doing it in the eighties with optima's, mini mustangs (which was also available from the factory as 2wd or 4wd), cat xls's and the like, i bet hundreds of people have done this to virtually every conceivable car over the years, i remember someone running a predator as a 2wd at teivyside years ago. as long as there are no front shafts to the wheels it is effectively a heavy 2wd car. extra weight can make a car much easier to drive so thats an advantage, front end geometry only works on high grip so thats a disadvantage on anything but astro. extra rules to ban it arent needed, its just one of those things that comes and goes, while aiding innovation, do you think the db1 and the tm2 would have ever been made if someone hadnt run a 4wd without front shafts and had then modified it to change the geometry? would you ban my 2wd because it uses a 4wd rear gearbox and a motor mount from a 1/12?? no. forget rules, let people try things and Innovate

[stumpiey]

the way i see it is, if there was such an advantage in running a converted 4wd in 2wd then the top guys would be doing it, also it allows people who may have supported drives from manufactures who only produce a 4wd to be able to promote the cars and show that you can just have the one car, and can then race in either 2wd or 4wd.

[johnboy]

Originally Posted by 12-nitroman

if you ask me, some of the BRCA rules are a little too much.

Ok I'm asking in what way are they too much?

I'm personally not fussed if people use a 4wd in 2wd with front shafts removed.