When is a 2wd not a 2wd

[ianjoyner]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

Will we go back to the old days where there was only one class of racing?

I find it strange that with 1/10th off road we have two classes together. I've never run 4WD basically because it just seems like a second set of gear / maintenance time in order to do pretty much the same thing.

[Mowen208fly]

23.6 All open gears must be enclosed or protected during racing procedures, so as not to cause injury.

I know this is to cover pinion and spur gears but where do we stand with 2 moving outdrives sticking out the front gearbox as they can be quite sharp?

[Dudders]

On a normal club night/am meeting we run 2wd and 4wd together, mainly as 4wd numbers are lower, can't say there's much difference, but that depends on conditions and track size I guess?

[K-Brewer]

Just to put my 2cents in, I don't really think 4wd to 2wd is a big problem as long there's no drive shaft on the front to the wheels an the centre drive shaft to the front diff is removed as well, in my eyes its then just a different variation of 2wd drive but I do think 2wd in a 4wd race isn't right, so what about weight being the same it's a 4WD race so all 4 wheels need to drive which u cannot do to a 2wd. I actually think 4wd may come a little redundant as what's the point as u dont technically need a 4wd car

[Dudders]

Originally Posted by Mowen208fly

23.6 All open gears must be enclosed or protected during racing procedures, so as not to cause injury.

I know this is to cover pinion and spur gears but where do we stand with 2 moving outdrives sticking out the front gearbox as they can be quite sharp?

Be them not gears

[Dudders]

Originally Posted by K-Brewer

Just to put my 2cents in, I don't really think 4wd to 2wd is a big problem as long there's no drive shaft on the front to the wheels an the centre drive shaft to the front diff is removed as well, in my eyes its then just a different variation of 2wd drive but I do think 2wd in a 4wd race isn't right, so what about weight being the same it's a 4WD race so all 4 wheels need to drive which u cannot do to a 2wd. I actually think 4wd may come a little redundant as what's the point as u dont technically need a 4wd car

Again, depends on track size, design and weather. Sloppy wet astro, 4wd will be quicker.... Bone dry and high grip, 2wd?

[K-Brewer]

Originally Posted by Dudders

Again, depends on track size, design and weather. Sloppy wet astro, 4wd will be quicker.... Bone dry and high grip, 2wd?

4wd would b quicker your right but technically u don't have to use a 4wd car so whats the point in calling it a 4wd class if u don't actually need a 4wd car that's all I'm trying to say mate

[Chrislong]

Originally Posted by adey

I don't get this at all. I may of read this wrong but is a purpose designed 4wd buggy with the front drive removed faster than a purpose designed 2wd buggy running as designed. ?.

Good question, I thought the same. Surely a 2wd running 2wd is faster than a 2wd 4wd.

[danDanEFC]

Where these 'evil' cars being driven by the top guys and so they would be fast with any car they drove.

Or did some 'no-mark' gain 20 places above his normal place?

This is new to me as without an oOple report I have no idea who drove what.

[Dudders]

Originally Posted by K-Brewer

4wd would b quicker your right but technically u don't have to use a 4wd car so whats the point in calling it a 4wd class if u don't actually need a 4wd car that's all I'm trying to say mate

I agree but it's been in the BRCA rule book for years that, if a 2wd car reaches the min 4wd weight it can race. I've always found this very odd!

[Dudders]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

Good question, I thought the same. Surely a 2wd running 2wd is faster than a 2wd 4wd.

Not in all cases, as has been proved by the sections elite drivers (and us club level ones) based on track conditions and type.

[jimmy]

If you think there's a benefit from a gyro effect - there's no stopping anyone running a brass flywheel at the front of a 2WD. Have it turned by the steering servo to throw the car into the corner more? I duno - I raced a K1 myself in 2WD - the geometry isn't as desperate for steering is all -and neither is the layout, so it's easier to drive on these stupid high grip tracks.

Dirt tracks only for a season see how it goes. It rains - big deal. Man up and run a nicely sealed up car. Couple of tyre choices, holeshots or something more meaty for a loamy dirt track like step pins or similar.

I think I just went off on a tangent.

[Mossy]

I made the A Final at Stotfold with my Sv2 but I admit I tried my k1 without any driveshafts in the final round of qualifying. Not because I wanted to - as many of you who know me know I am dead against 4wd in the 2wd class - but because my main competitors were trying it so I had to in case it was quicker. I hated it. Car felt just wrong to drive so I went back to my sv2 and was more than competitive in the finals (I did most of the second leg in the middle of 3 converted 4wds).

It's a difficult one for sure. On the one hand you could take the view that it could help promote our sport (one car etc) and increase entries, but on the other it is against the 'spirit' of having 2 separate classes.

For me there should always be 2 classes, and I agree with some of the comments above about how to word the rules to make this separation would be difficult. However, in my opinion a well setup 2wd will still be a better match than any converted car.

Time will tell what happens I guess, but I'm in the 2wd only camp.

Si

[discothesnake]

I was there and witnessed this and to be honest I thought it looked shit! Awful idea and I really hope this gets sorted out.

It surely would not be in the interest of a manufacturer to sell one car only.

It really surprised me that team drivers were allowed to do this as I expected manufacturers to insist that they are seen driving the car of that class?

I for one would like to see 2wd's and 4wd's do their own thing.

[Lee1972]

Originally Posted by ianjoyner

I find it strange that with 1/10th off road we have two classes together. I've never run 4WD basically because it just seems like a second set of gear / maintenance time in order to do pretty much the same thing.

Me and my lad only run 2wd for the same reason.

[Lee1972]

Originally Posted by discothesnake

I was there and witnessed this and to be honest I thought it looked shit! Awful idea and I really hope this gets sorted out.

It surely would not be in the interest of a manufacturer to sell one car only.

It really surprised me that team drivers were allowed to do this as I expected manufacturers to insist that they are seen driving the car of that class?

I for one would like to see 2wd's and 4wd's do their own thing.

You'd think as this could probably limit 2wd kit sales which I'm sure they wouldn't be pleased about.

[PaulRotheram]

Originally Posted by discothesnake

I was there and witnessed this and to be honest I thought it looked shit! Awful idea and I really hope this gets sorted out.

It surely would not be in the interest of a manufacturer to sell one car only.

It really surprised me that team drivers were allowed to do this as I expected manufacturers to insist that they are seen driving the car of that class?

I for one would like to see 2wd's and 4wd's do their own thing.

I'm quite annoyed the fact team drivers were allowed to do this. For the single action of running a 4wd over the manufacturers top spot 2wd, it is basically saying the 2wd car isn't good enough.

Intended or not - that's the message being given.

[JoelMaher]

Originally Posted by PaulRotheram

I'm quite annoyed the fact team drivers were allowed to do this. For the single action of running a 4wd over the manufacturers top spot 2wd, it is basically saying the 2wd car isn't good enough.

Intended or not - that's the message being given.

Exactly my thoughts on saturday

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Dudders

Again, depends on track size, design and weather. Sloppy wet astro, 4wd will be quicker.... Bone dry and high grip, 2wd?

so assuming sunday was dry, did anyone run 2wd in the 4wd meeting either 2wd or 2wd 4x4? and make the A or win, to back up your claim?

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by vinny20

If people would convert Touring cars and race them against 1/12 scales it would cause an upset to some my view on this would be im sure we would like to see no class getting messed about just have a nice time racing

Nice idea, but... A TC would be way over width and over length and terminally over weight for the 12th class. What you may mean is if someone came up with a 4WD, fully independent suspension 12th car that did fit teh box and the weight? It's been tried a number of times over the years, and a 12th car is waaayyyyy faster.

There isn't really another class with which you can draw comparison.

Originally Posted by Steve.T

Can't see Losi, Schumacher, Yokomo, X ray, Associated and the rest allowing this. Its a whole seperate market for them

I can see them loving it! A new car that has 80% the same parts and differs only by a few components taken out and a couple of (suspension geometry related) bits thrown in? If I was making cars I would be all for it as it would save me a fortune in tooling, manufacturing, shipping, inventory and packaging costs! Bring it on...!

I've written and amended rules for over 25 years including the original TC rules and the revised off-road rules. I cannot see any way that you can restrict the design of a car to be either a traditional 2WD or a traditional 4WD with today's designs.

The horse bolted when you allowed mid-motor 2WD cars. If you'd stepped in as a Section at that point and said that a 2WD car must have the longitudinal axis of the motor behind, and parallel with, the longitudinal axis of the rear axle, this would not now be a problem.

There is nothing you can write in a rule book now that would stop a 4WD chassis design being sold as a 2WD car. However much you might want to preserve 2WD as a class on its own, you've lost the chance now that mid-mounted 2WD cars are there.

Personally, I always liked the simplicity and challenge of 2WD Off-Road and grew to prefer it to the 4WD alternative. It would be a shame to see it go in my view. The reality is that the best rule you can put in place to keep it like that would outlaw the mid-mounted cars and put a lot of your drivers to additional expense. Since one of the advantages of this current trend is the potential to reduce expense, that doesn't seem a logical move!

I didn't vote - it's not 'my' class - but I would prefer to see a rear-mounted 2WD car be the design standard for that class. I am not sure if that is an opinion, or nostalgia talking!