Why flip rear pivot blocks on X-5?

[super__dan]

Excellent!

[Migs]

Originally Posted by super__dan

3 deg inboard come on the xx4 WE? It's xx CR not the newer XXX CR.

The 0 deg inboard and toe outboard was from the original XX/XX4, the only person I know that used that was Cree who liked it with the 2 1/2 deg hubs. I have the bits for it but tend to stick with the 'norm'

As it happens though I am now using the XXX CR wishbones and hubs for for different reasons, there is no forced compatability.

Yep i assumed you were all talking XXX-cr blocks, and yep, i'll be mucking around with some old school XX4 blocks with the 0 deg toe in inboard, i have 1 and 2 deg hubs, the other way to do it as someone pointed out in another thread is to keep the 3 deg inboard, then put the hubs on backwards so they cancel out some of the toe, but i want to try it all out, running stock, toe-in represents tyre scrub which slows the car marginally so the less toe i run, the faster in a straight line it should be, then there will be diminishing returns if the car loses handling with less toe in, on a grippy smooth track it should work out better, and now it seems people are liking the blocks upside down, i'll try that first, then try the toe adjustments. oh and the "no forced compatibilty" comment is awesome, im not a fan of the ea3 cr hubs and arms and all the vla stuff, every time i tried it on the XXX4 i seemed to never be able to get the width right, either the cvds seemed too short or too long, which is why i stick to the standard bits, plus too many options with the hub and u have to run a fair few washers under the ball stud, so the ball cup doesnt hit the hub when the suspension is compressed.. However, now i know i can run the blocks without needing to change anything else, that helps

Thanks for reporting back to us Fiddybux, are u fiddycents cousin or something?

[super__dan]

With all the Losi cars you must the right combination of wishbones and hubs. I used to run a XXX4, other than the original hubs and wishbones your options were to run the BK2 rear wishbones and hubs, but you HAD to run them both. If you did you could run the long or short VLA with no change to the width of the car so the driveshafts shouldn't mover. Note that the XXX4 rear geometry was not the same as the XXCR.

You can't run the BK2 stuff on the XX4 or X5 becasuse it is based on the XXCR back end. Hence becasue the inner toe in blocks are in right place you CAN put the XXXCR wishbones AND hubs becasue they are based on the same inner toe in points.

To run the XXXCR hubs you 'must' cut the inner set of holes off using a dremel or whatever, that way no ballstub washers are 'needed'. Personally I now run the new hubs in the D hole which is the 2nd outer (1/2 outer?) hole with no washers. That combined with going 1 hole further in (longer) on the tower link position has really helped lock in the rear end for me.

[Fiddybux]

Originally Posted by super__dan

With all the Losi cars you must the right combination of wishbones and hubs. I used to run a XXX4, other than the original hubs and wishbones your options were to run the BK2 rear wishbones and hubs, but you HAD to run them both. If you did you could run the long or short VLA with no change to the width of the car so the driveshafts shouldn't mover. Note that the XXX4 rear geometry was not the same as the XXCR.

You can't run the BK2 stuff on the XX4 or X5 becasuse it is based on the XXCR back end. Hence becasue the inner toe in blocks are in right place you CAN put the XXXCR wishbones AND hubs becasue they are based on the same inner toe in points.

To run the XXXCR hubs you 'must' cut the inner set of holes off using a dremel or whatever, that way no ballstub washers are 'needed'. Personally I now run the new hubs in the D hole which is the 2nd outer (1/2 outer?) hole with no washers. That combined with going 1 hole further in (longer) on the tower link position has really helped lock in the rear end for me.

That's really interesting Dan...but I'm finding it a little difficult to visualise. Can you post a pic of yours for us?

[super__dan]

Just on way out, will try to upload when I get back.

[Fiddybux]

Lovely...look forward to it.

[super__dan]

OK, so this is a pic in order from top to bottom
BK2
XX CR
XXXCR

The inner pivots are all aligned, you can see that the inner hole on the BK2 and the outer hole of the XXX CR wishbones all align. And that the BK2 has an wider VLA hole and the XXX CR a narrower VLA hole.



The pic below the original XXX4 hub (the BK2 is the same but extra outer hole for the wider VLA mentioned above) and the XX CR (xx4 WE or X5) hubs.



I've not got a spare XXX CR hub to add on to compare but you can see from the above that the bearing faces are different, which is why the width of the car and driveshaft/diff position varies if you start mixing and matching.


OK so this is how I've got my X5, using XXX CR wishbones and hubs, I use the outer VLA position which is same as the original hole on the XX CR (xx4WE) wishbones.



The one thing to note with the wishbones is that the shock pickups are different. The OUTER hole on the XXX CR wishbones is almost the same as the INNER hole on the old XX CR ones (technically it's between the inner and outer hole of the old arms). This is good for me becasue I virtually never used the outer hole wishbones, but wanted ones further in. We ran softer springs a lot last year, I want to try the inner holes and red springs this year to see how it compares, or even just go further in when tracks rut up.

Lastly you can see the hole I'm using in the hubs and the corner I've cut off so there is no fouling off the turnbuckle end and the corner of the hub.

[_sleigh_]

Great post Dan, it really hightlights all the options available.


also... I spy with my little eye, something beginning with "L" Works well don't it



for those of you that are intrigued by that comment above, have a look here - http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19226

[Fiddybux]

Yes that is truly awesome Dan. You went above and beyond the call of duty there...thank you very much. All very clear.

Love that method of fixing the LIPO in too. I opted for a plate and strap system, but this raises the centre of gravity slightly. Yours keeps the CG as low as it can go. Ace!

[super__dan]

As Phil says some better pics of the strap in other thread. Totally Phils idea, better than the way I originally had it. It's now all very safe/secure/snug.

"We've" been really lucky that Lipo's fit in our car so well/easily with such minimal mods. None of us know what's happening with saddles but even if/what are allowed I think you'll be better off with stick Lipos and any that fit the rules footprint will fit.

[Migs]

awesome post dan, as said, way above the call of duty, just to round it out for me, in the pic with the hubs, if you had a xxxcr hub on there with it running through the outer hole on the hub, would it match up with the xx4/xxcr hub meaning we dont have to change driveshafts at all, if the 0 deg inboard toe in doesnt work, i'll switch to this setup, jesse robbers ran his xx4 like this, so that could be helpful and i have no idea why i didnt think of chopping a bit of that corner to stop it fowling on the ballcup

And your lipo setup rules, i was thinking of doing something like that but i wasnt sure how to attach something to the back of the chassis like that without it coming out the other side and folwing on the battery, so i went for the simpler batt post up the back left of the battery area, which to my annoyance meant the battery doesnt sit perpendicular to the chassis

thanks again super "helpful" dan

[super__dan]

Migs, I assume the CR bearing face is the same else there would be a change in width though I've not checked. I'll have to dig deeper to see if I've any XXX CR hubs somewhere in the box as I can't be arsed to take them off my car.

What I would say is that on the old B2/3 when I used to also run stock, I used to frequently try to run the 2 deg hubs for the same reason you mention i.e. less scrub - more performance.

I always concluded that I couldn't feel any performance gain but the car was always that little bit harder to drive. Maybe it's better in 4wd, in fact it must be at Lee Martin ran the very successful first season with Aero with little/no toe in but I'd now always go for setup over anything else.

[Fiddybux]

Okay, this is all gold!

But excuse my ignorance here chaps, I can understand the point of wanting to use XXXCR bones so that you can stand the rear shock more upright if needed (because the lower shock positions are set inward than the equivalent XX4 bones - as clearly shown above).

What I don't really get is the benefit of all the ball cup options on the top of the hubs. What does angling them back wards away from the body do? Why is it better / different than just standard inner / middle / outer configuration we're all used to? If someone could explain this to me then I'll give this a go.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't use the inner VLA without changing to shorter XXXCR CVD's right? I'm not even sure you would want to run it like this anyway - it would probably tip over more easily is my guess. But it would have a smaller turning circle though. Hmmmm.

Finally, can this mod be run along with the flipped block mod and is there any benefit to this? I suppose what I'm asking is are the two mods mutually exclusive from one another? So you can get the benefit of the flipped block mod AND the benefit of this mod (whatever they are) at the same time? I guess you can, and I don't see why not, but my thinking might be flawed.

Cheers guys,

Russ.

[ashleyb4]

I've not got a spare XXX CR hub to add on to compare but you can see from the above that the bearing faces are different, which is why the width of the car and driveshaft/diff position varies if you start mixing and matching.

You mean like this dan...




Left xxxcr middle xxx4 right xxcr sorry for poor quality my camera is going flat must to left it on.

here is my xxx-cr rear end




A

[Paul_Sinclair]

Originally Posted by Fiddybux

What I don't really get is the benefit of all the ball cup options on the top of the hubs. What does angling them back wards away from the body do? Why is it better / different than just standard inner / middle / outer configuration we're all used to? If someone could explain this to me then I'll give this a go.

There are five options in the XXX 'CR' hub carriers - the three on the 'front' row and the two in the middle row. They're staggered to get them all on the block without a loss of strength. The back row is there so that the hubs are reversible - you flip the hub around to run it on the other side of the car, and the back three holes become the front three. Angling the upper camber link back (going from the front row to the back row, same hole) would change nothing handling wise.

[Body Paint]

Nice one Dan! part numbers would make it perfect

[ashleyb4]

Losi xxx-cr rear VLA EA3 wisbones - A2132

Losi xxx-cr rear hub carriers EA3 - A2129

for thumbs

A

[bigred5765]

Originally Posted by Fiddybux

Okay, this is all gold!




Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't use the inner VLA without changing to shorter XXXCR CVD's right? I'm not even sure you would want to run it like this anyway - it would probably tip over more easily is my guess. But it would have a smaller turning circle though. Hmmmm.

Finally, can this mod be run along with the flipped block mod and is there any benefit to this? I suppose what I'm asking is are the two mods mutually exclusive from one another? So you can get the benefit of the flipped block mod AND the benefit of this mod (whatever they are) at the same time? I guess you can, and I don't see why not, but my thinking might be flawed.

Cheers guys,

Russ.

the vla option is just to shorten the wishbone length,you can run it as is xxxcr wishbone and hubs gives you long or short vla, theres two hole in the hub same as you see on the wishbones, so no cvd or drive shaft changes,and as for flipping the rear hub, the benefits stay the same which ever wishbone and hub you use,

[Fiddybux]

Originally Posted by bigred5765

the vla option is just to shorten the wishbone length,you can run it as is xxxcr wishbone and hubs gives you long or short vla, theres two hole in the hub same as you see on the wishbones, so no cvd or drive shaft changes,and as for flipping the rear hub, the benefits stay the same which ever wishbone and hub you use,

Hey Carl,

Yeah okay....so the hub stays where it is, just the pivot point of the hub and wishbone moves in or out depending on the VLA position. Makes sense!

[super__dan]

I'm a bit late onto this tonight but seems everyone has it all covered

Oh and yes the mods are fine together. I run flipped 0deg blocks all the time and not the XXXCR wishbones and hubs all the time.