BRCA 1/10th Electric Off Road AGM Proposals

[Chris56]

Originally Posted by Northy

Also (I can't actually take credit for this.....):

The EB list stops a company releasing a car that uses an odd shaped battery that is either unavailable to the general public or costs a ridiculous amount of money!

G

I just wish then that Tamiya would do more re-releases that will take square LIPO rather than those silly round 6s jobs from yester-year!

[Chris56]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

If you are one of the ones buying from HK and not paying import duty then you dont care about the rules.

Therefore any one asking for non homologated Lipos to be allowed at racing should not be allowed an opinion on the subject, and reported to the authority's immediately.

Let see who posts about HK Lipos now? I will make a note and call the good people at customs!

Really?? Unless HK are bringing the products into the UK using black speedboats in the middle of the night and storing them in hidden caves I don't think anybody has anything to worry about Im pretty sure duty is paid if buying from the UK warehouse anyway

On a serious note, the focus of the BRCA needs to be more on how people use their LIPOs rather than dictating which ones people can/can't use at regionals/nationals.

Personally, Im a club racer and haven't bothered with reigionals for some time. If I did choose to go to a regional I would hate to be turned away because my Turnigy/Zippy lipos (which are excellent BTW) weren't on some list.

I did scruntineering for 1 round a few years ago and some kid turned up with an EZrun sensorless motor - not on the BRCA list but I just turned a blind eye and let him race.

I've only witnessed 2 LIPO fires in the past, in both cases the LIPOs were on the BRCA list but they still went up because of mis-use and mechanical failure.

My club has strict rules on using LIPOs:
1) Max 1C charge
2) No discharging using the charger
3) Must be charged in safe container (sack, aluminium box etc)
4) Hard-cased varieties only
Although it is sometimes hard to do this, but we do try and enforce these rules every week.

There may be something similar in the BRCA rules but I would much rather "the list" would be relaced with something to enforce the above rules.

[AC199]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

The problem is with online voting you need to be able to read, read the the proposal, and then understand it before making decisions other wise the less intelligent jump to assumptions, odly you and others seem to struggle with at least one part of that.

Oh Mark you really are a vindictive soul aren't you? Is there any need to insult people in such a way? I think you'll find the only person here showing a lack of intelligence is you, no one should throw blanket statements around like that, it's not cool man...

[RogerM]

As Big T asked a few posts back ......

.... what was the outcome of the track related proposals?

Now that is out of the way I have to say I am in favour of the BRCA EB lists being used at regionals (also control tires too but that is a discussion for a different thread) and equally happy to see clubs take the sensible approach of just following the general regs for club meetings.

The point of regionals, as was explained to me by Mr BRCA EB himself many years ago, to provide the step between "club" & "national" racing and to provide a means of grading drivers should they wish to enter national events (including end of season finals).

Part of that step is levelling the playing field across all regions by means of having a set of performance defining components that the are agreed across all regions. Logically that should be the same as that used for nationals so to minimise the transition, both in terms of cost and performance, when the regional driver takes the next step to nationals.

So what happens when 'Mr A.N.Other' decides he wants to do the single regional being held by his home club to get a taste of the next step on the racing ladder?
Hopefully there will be some of his mates will be able to lend him some kit for the day, that is what has normally happened in my experience ... sometimes I've lent kit to strangers to let them race in that situation as have many others I know.
If not then there are still options such as a 'guest' heat. no big deal.

Lets move on from the discussions about EB lists and look at the proposals that might really have influenced racing, those relating to the tracks.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Chris56

Really?? Unless HK are bringing the products into the UK using black speedboats in the middle of the night and storing them in hidden caves I don't think anybody has anything to worry about Im pretty sure duty is paid if buying from the UK warehouse anyway

On a serious note, the focus of the BRCA needs to be more on how people use their LIPOs rather than dictating which ones people can/can't use at regionals/nationals.

Personally, Im a club racer and haven't bothered with reigionals for some time. If I did choose to go to a regional I would hate to be turned away because my Turnigy/Zippy lipos (which are excellent BTW) weren't on some list.

I did scruntineering for 1 round a few years ago and some kid turned up with an EZrun sensorless motor - not on the BRCA list but I just turned a blind eye and let him race.

I've only witnessed 2 LIPO fires in the past, in both cases the LIPOs were on the BRCA list but they still went up because of mis-use and mechanical failure.

My club has strict rules on using LIPOs:
1) Max 1C charge
2) No discharging using the charger
3) Must be charged in safe container (sack, aluminium box etc)
4) Hard-cased varieties only
Although it is sometimes hard to do this, but we do try and enforce these rules every week.

There may be something similar in the BRCA rules but I would much rather "the list" would be relaced with something to enforce the above rules.

if you are not enforcing number 3 then your not even following the brca general rules which every brca club/member are bound by....

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by AC199

Oh Mark you really are a vindictive soul aren't you? Is there any need to insult people in such a way? I think you'll find the only person here showing a lack of intelligence is you, no one should throw blanket statements around like that, it's not cool man...

how did it go?...."thought you had a sence of humour"
but on the contrary, I full understand the procedures and rules and know whats needed to be done to change things, others including you don't seem to be able to grasp whats needed and why!

[Chris56]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

if you are not enforcing number 4 then your not even following the brca general rules which every brca club/member are bound by....

TBH I don't think I've even seen a soft-cased LIPO before, let alone at the club!

PS I like the avatar

[PaulRotheram]

[shark]

Originally Posted by PaulRotheram

[Coastal]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

I never mentioned the BRCA was elitist, it is an organisation of us the racers. We all have input. So when i say the BRCA implement the rules i mean the committee who we elected and do all the work on our behalf !

Read my post - I never said you mentioned the BRCA was elitist I was quoting from other comments as stated in this thread and other forums

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Chris56

TBH I don't think I've even seen a soft-cased LIPO before, let alone at the club!

PS I like the avatar

doh should be number 3

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by AC199

Been reading this thread with popcorn in hand, and I see a few issues that the hierarchy are failing to take into account...

1. 99% of people are club racers, and not that serious they would drive 200 miles to the AGM.
2. The AGM takes place once per year and is attended by 20 people or so.
3. These 20 people decide the rules which all BRCA affiliated clubs have to attempt to abide by
4. Mark Christopher's grammar is really bad sometimes and makes my face twitch
5. If everyone decided to turn up, would the venue really be able to support 3-4000 people arriving?

These points taken into account, the only way to get a consensus of what the racing public want as a whole is to put this online (...and give Mark more lessons in the English language)

You cannot base the opinions of the whole racing populous on the opinions of 20 people who decide they have the time and money to show up once a year to some far flung place and act like its a democratic process. It isn't. Its like doing the polls for the general election of the UK government in Lebanon and asking people to go and vote. Ridiculous.

I'm not saying that the Cells list is unreasonable, I think safety is very important, I'm not saying the track width proposal is correct either, but having the rules decided by people who live nearby or have nothing better to do than drive 200 miles one day purely to support a motion is pants-on-head retarded.

Wake up and smell technology for the love of god. All of this bickering and whining could be solved with a few simple polls put on the BRCA website.

1. Do you agree with the motion listed here? (Imagine the "here" is a link to a proposal) 3 buttons "Yes" "No" "I don't give a shit its about Bouring Cars"

Easy mode.

Make it happen or next year there will be a proposal to get the AGM voting shit online and I guarantee a pub wouldn't be a big enough venue, you'd need to hire out Twickenham to get everyone in for that motion.

On line voting without discussion would be worse than what we have now. Many proposals are not thought through well in wording, but have the right intent. By discussion and amendment they are put right.

Just look at the 10th Off Road proposal for wheel sizes - a totally unworkable proposal that, if voted in, would have been impossible to police. IF the intent is right then by discussion it would have been made workable. Or do you prefer that each proposal is made workable by the very same small number of people you seem to dislike before it is put on line?

By the way, 100% of the country have the use of a postal vote so they can vote at elections at their convenience. Still we have turnouts of about 65% because people can't even be arsed to make a cross on a piece of paper and post it. What makes you think on line voting would be any better than turning up in person?

Originally Posted by terry.sc

The UK Warehouse is in the UK, their details are
Lucky Stuff Ltd
18 Elmsett Airfield
Elmsett
Ipswich
Suffolk
IP7 6LN
While technically it's just an import warehouse that distributes product in the UK, it is part owned by the owner of Hobbyking. If products are already in the UK then the customs paperwork and any duty owing should already be paid.

That's not the criteria - the criteria is where the company is registered and where you send you money to. Does the money we send go to the UK or Hong Kong or somewhere else? Most of what you buy on Amazon is paid for in Ireland and supplied from mainland Europe! Sure they replace stuff, but has anyone tested their product liability position? No!

Originally Posted by DCM

Col, I really do understand that, but the impression people have is that the cells on the list are 'safer' than those that aren't, which it seams to why they want the list. And I assume that all those who buy cells from overseas fully understand their responsibility when they purchase and use them?

If you are buying from a reputable outlet (I am sure you can call HK that) then they should have that, and aircraft, boats, airsoft etc seem happy with their cell use.

That impression has been created by uninformed posters on this and other forums. It has never been something said implicitly or explicitly by the BRCA EB or Exec. The EB list provides my Section with stability of supply and the knowledge that if I buy a product form the EB list it is approved for transport to UK and is supported by an agent or manufacturer who is based in the EU and thus liable for the product in the event of things going badly tits up.

Col, Jimmy - for the love of God please put this thread out of its misery. Ta.

[dazp83]

So the brca is a democracy but when people have an opinion, shut the thread down or call them criminals. Ha what a joke. Please do shut it so don't hear the boring replys anymore.

[Col]

The BRCA is a democracy. It's just that most seem not to have realised.
oOple, however, isn't.

[AC199]

Or do you prefer that each proposal is made workable by the very same small number of people you seem to dislike before it is put on line?

Please do me the service of finding which of my posts has me saying I dislike anyone with the time and spare money to go to AGM? I envy them, not dislike them. My suggestion is a method of getting the ability to vote to those of us with lives which preclude our attendance.

On line voting without discussion would be worse than what we have now. Many proposals are not thought through well in wording, but have the right intent. By discussion and amendment they are put right.

So, what you're saying is people have the right ideas but it needs a bit of tweaking? No shit there Sherlock, very few ideas are perfect right from the get go, that's why we should have online discussions beforehand, to change the wording to avoid situations such as the wheel sizes idea etc.

By the way, 100% of the country have the use of a postal vote so they can vote at elections at their convenience. Still we have turnouts of about 65% because people can't even be arsed to make a cross on a piece of paper and post it. What makes you think on line voting would be any better than turning up in person?

Lets ask the population shall we? Rather than the laws of our hobby be decided by those able to go, lets bring the ability to go to the masses by putting it online and have more input. The number of people lacking clarity on these issues such as Cells and wheels means more information is needed.

I've spent so long being around committees and I've seen the way they DON'T work for the last 30 years. People do get stuck in their ways, they make decisions based on too little information and too little input from others, but the attendance of the last 3 AGM's has to be a sign that more input, not less is needed. Yes the details may need tweaking, but anything has to be better than what we have with an impotent committee who's hands are tied and cannot make the changes they want to because 10 years ago someone voted that you had to be there in person to change a bloody rule.

Jim Spencer has been straight with us, its up to us to change the landscape of our sport, up to us to get changed the things that we want changing, and peoples negativity towards getting a greater input baffles me. Mark Christopher I can understand, clearly he has a huge amount of hatred towards me, strange considering I've never met the guy, but hell I rub people up the wrong way so whatever, but all I'm trying to do is give people a voice, is that really such a bad thing?

[DCM]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

That impression has been created by uninformed posters on this and other forums. It has never been something said implicitly or explicitly by the BRCA EB or Exec. The EB list provides my Section with stability of supply and the knowledge that if I buy a product form the EB list it is approved for transport to UK and is supported by an agent or manufacturer who is based in the EU and thus liable for the product in the event of things going badly tits up.

Col, Jimmy - for the love of God please put this thread out of its misery. Ta.

Actually, a lot of 'informed posters' are flying the safety flag. I know what the EB List is for and why, been racing long enough. Which is why I kept pushing it, Northy's post hit the reason for the EB list right on the head.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by Jim Spencer

Hi Mark
Actually I think with Skype and similar I think people remote from a meeting can be an integral part of it - just need the right tools and I think it's probably do-able.
Online polls can be another useful tool to gauge a mass opinion that you can then base the above discussion around.

Certainly several sections already use (or have done) polls (it's a choice their members have made) as a tool to do just that - though I don't think any have made the jump to allowing people to join the meeting remotely - and that last bit surprises me really.
It'd only take One person to make the proposal along with the strap line of "and come along on the day to make it work too" and I reckon it might just get voted in.. at least on a sectional basis.

Jim, totally agree, conference calling, webinars etc are massive in business these days, recently, the company I work for did a £1,500,000 refinance on a clients property portfolio, the clients came to the office once, the rest was done via email, skype etc. Technology can make the voting process much more inclusive rather than (for lack of a better word) exclusive (to those who can attend).

As for regionals, some regions struggle with numbers to get decent heats and ability mixing so by excluding people from the regional heats just makes things worse, I much prefer to include people because in the end, if they are going to be racing as billy no mates, they won't come, that's more drivers lost and revenue for the club.

[HOTSHOT III]

Originally Posted by dazp83

So the brca is a democracy but when people have an opinion, shut the thread down or call them criminals. Ha what a joke.

I've been watching this thread with interest, i'm a club racer who knew nothing about LiPo batteries when I returned to racing in 2011 and i've used nothing but Turnigy batteries since then.

It's not rocket science. All I did when I started was read the guide i've linked below, i've never lost a cell and never had a LiPo fire:

http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-lipo-batteries.html

To try and dictate to people what brand of batteries they can use seems laughable to me, particularly because I started on 1/8th brushless which, if i've understood correctly, has no restriction despite the fact they run on 2 x 2S or a 4S pack so in theory have twice the level of danger as a 1/10th car running 2S.

Some posters have responded by telling people to basically just quit complaining and buy the approved batteries off the EB list, but why should I when I can get perfectly good, safe, ROAR-legal ones for half the price (or less!!)? Why are the equivalent approved ones so expensive? This is just Ripoff Britain all over again, no different to parallel import motorcycles in the '90s or any other number of examples. It's a short-sighted approach which discourages people from taking up the hobby in the first place.

For me the biggest problem here is not the extra £20 for an "approved" LiPo pack but the behaviour of "yes men" like Mark Christopher and Neil Skull, trying to bully and intimidate people into towing the party line and signing up to what amounts to a price cartel. Looking back through history, all corrupt systems of government have relied on people like these two to basically go out into the general population and put the boot in to anyone who disagrees with the party line. Hitler had the Gestapo, Stalin had the KGB, and we get Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.

There is a principle here. Who are they to threaten me with grassing me up to "the good people at customs"? As a person whose ancestors fought against Hitler for my freedom (which is now being taken away by the government) I actually find this offensive on a personal level, it's no different to the Swedish government passing a law which makes it illegal to criticise their mass immigration policy (and yes, they've actually done this). If they want to behave in this way then might I suggest that they get in touch with Kim Jong Un? He's setting up the NKRCA and this pair of jobsworths could be just the fellows!

If the moderators on here take the view that i've been personally offensive then fine, delete my post. That will only serve to highlight the fact that some of us know the difference between the reality of freedom and the illusion of freedom. I have nothing personal against the people whose names i've mentioned, I just think they're very misguided in the way they've tried to argue their point.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by AC199

Please do me the service of finding which of my posts has me saying I dislike anyone with the time and spare money to go to AGM? I envy them, not dislike them. My suggestion is a method of getting the ability to vote to those of us with lives which preclude our attendance.



So, what you're saying is people have the right ideas but it needs a bit of tweaking? No shit there Sherlock, very few ideas are perfect right from the get go, that's why we should have online discussions beforehand, to change the wording to avoid situations such as the wheel sizes idea etc.



Lets ask the population shall we? Rather than the laws of our hobby be decided by those able to go, lets bring the ability to go to the masses by putting it online and have more input. The number of people lacking clarity on these issues such as Cells and wheels means more information is needed.

I've spent so long being around committees and I've seen the way they DON'T work for the last 30 years. People do get stuck in their ways, they make decisions based on too little information and too little input from others, but the attendance of the last 3 AGM's has to be a sign that more input, not less is needed. Yes the details may need tweaking, but anything has to be better than what we have with an impotent committee who's hands are tied and cannot make the changes they want to because 10 years ago someone voted that you had to be there in person to change a bloody rule.

Jim Spencer has been straight with us, its up to us to change the landscape of our sport, up to us to get changed the things that we want changing, and peoples negativity towards getting a greater input baffles me. Mark Christopher I can understand, clearly he has a huge amount of hatred towards me, strange considering I've never met the guy, but hell I rub people up the wrong way so whatever, but all I'm trying to do is give people a voice, is that really such a bad thing?

Let's get this straight, I had not said anything to you till you attacked my dislexia and made it personal......

If you want to gallop in in you shiney armour in your white horse and save all the poor hk souls, then do it via the correct procedure pointed out by me and Jim, look forward to seeing your proposal.....

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by HOTSHOT III

I've been watching this thread with interest, i'm a club racer who knew nothing about LiPo batteries when I returned to racing in 2011 and i've used nothing but Turnigy batteries since then.

It's not rocket science. All I did when I started was read the guide i've linked below, i've never lost a cell and never had a LiPo fire:

http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-lipo-batteries.html

To try and dictate to people what brand of batteries they can use seems laughable to me, particularly because I started on 1/8th brushless which, if i've understood correctly, has no restriction despite the fact they run on 2 x 2S or a 4S pack so in theory have twice the level of danger as a 1/10th car running 2S.

Some posters have responded by telling people to basically just quit complaining and buy the approved batteries off the EB list, but why should I when I can get perfectly good, safe, ROAR-legal ones for half the price (or less!!)? Why are the equivalent approved ones so expensive? This is just Ripoff Britain all over again, no different to parallel import motorcycles in the '90s or any other number of examples. It's a short-sighted approach which discourages people from taking up the hobby in the first place.

For me the biggest problem here is not the extra £20 for an "approved" LiPo pack but the behaviour of "yes men" like Mark Christopher and Neil Skull, trying to bully and intimidate people into towing the party line and signing up to what amounts to a price cartel. Looking back through history, all corrupt systems of government have relied on people like these two to basically go out into the general population and put the boot in to anyone who disagrees with the party line. Hitler had the Gestapo, Stalin had the KGB, and we get Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.

There is a principle here. Who are they to threaten me with grassing me up to "the good people at customs"? As a person whose ancestors fought against Hitler for my freedom (which is now being taken away by the government) I actually find this offensive on a personal level, it's no different to the Swedish government passing a law which makes it illegal to criticise their mass immigration policy (and yes, they've actually done this). If they want to behave in this way then might I suggest that they get in touch with Kim Jong Un? He's setting up the NKRCA and this pair of jobsworths could be just the fellows!

If the moderators on here take the view that i've been personally offensive then fine, delete my post. That will only serve to highlight the fact that some of us know the difference between the reality of freedom and the illusion of freedom. I have nothing personal against the people whose names i've mentioned, I just think they're very misguided in the way they've tried to argue their point.

I'm not a yes man, I just understand the process and why we have a list. I'm also entitled to my opinion, just like you......
Let's all be honest here the biggest problem is not the £20 it's hobbyking not submitting their cells , if they did that then this would be a non issue