BRCA 1/10th Electric Off Road AGM Proposals

[matdodd]

I agree with part of what your saying.

What I don't understand is people always seam to say the cost of replacing serviceable goods (lipo's) with lipo's that are on the EB list is to high and therefore prohibitive but most of these people, certainly the ones I know personally have purchased lipo's that aren't on the list in the last 2 years.

There's been a lipo list for at least 6-7 years?
So as pointed out there have been/are cheap lipos on the list so why do people not buy them? Why year after year do we have the same arguments?

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by Chris Larner

Do the BRCA realise this or are they trying to start the end of this hobby.

Nothing to do with "the BRCA"
Everything to do with Mark Ashforth and Paul Dickens, those are the two people who have proposed all those new rules.

If those rules are voted in, then the people to blame are Mark and Paul, plus the majority of drivers who turn up at the AGM to vote them in.

All "the BRCA" does is make sure BRCA sanctioned meetings run to the rules that the drivers vote in.

Originally Posted by orinoco

The BRCA homologation issue just seems like a way of making our choice of batteries narrower and more expensive.....no?

Short answer - no it isn't.

Using the list means the manufacturers have a fixed date to work around and they can produce cells for that year without there being a constant capacity and C rating war. While buggies now have more power than they would ever need it's not too important, but for stock classes it can end up back in the battery of the month days, when to keep up you had to keep buying the latest batteries that were introduced few weeks.

The EB lists ensure that batteries and motors are commercially available here in the UK, so you can buy exactly the same equipment as the fastest drivers. No homologation means as long as they meet the BRCA specification they are race legal, without the EB list a driver could be using motors and batteries from his sponsor that aren't available to buy.

Originally Posted by paulc

I think all the AGM proposals should be put on the BRCA website and some sort of voting system put into place so all BRCA members can vote yes or no to what is being proposed. Would this work ?

Well, if enough people want online voting then there is a simple way of getting it. Put in a proposal at next years AGM and get it voted in.

The BRCA Committee can't change the voting unilaterally. Any rule, and especially rules which change the constitution, have to be changed at the AGM by a 2/3rds majority.

Each year there is always someone who asks why we can't vote online, yet no one follows it up with putting in a proposal at the next AGM.

[racingdwarf]

I will Agree that at first glance BRCA homologated batteries seem expensive but take a harder look, there are some very good well priced lipo's if you hunt around…and if shops have stock!

[MattW]

There is, and always has been a list of rules that can have "regional variation", so regionals don't have to run to exactly the same set of rules as nationals.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by MattW

There is, and always has been a list of rules that can have "regional variation", so regionals don't have to run to exactly the same set of rules as nationals.

That was the story in the past Matt, but this year from my understanding the regions were informed that the regional series MUST be run in accordance with the rules laid down in the BRCA manual.

As for batteries, yes Gens Ace are cheap, but more often than not when I looked, what I needed wasn't in stock and needing batteries at the time for the kids, unfortunately the only place that did was HobbyKing. So, serviceable lipo's bought due to the 'budget' ones on the list being unavailable.

[Steve.T]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

they do not come off the list they stay on, that's why the original old gold trakpower cells are still on there

I wasn't aware, cheers

[RudeTony]

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

[dwp102]

Originally Posted by RudeTony

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

I think the point is Tony, that the aim should be to decrease the cost of racing, not add to it. Ironically half (I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong) the people doing the nationals don't even pay for their equipment anyway, or they are heavily discounted, to the point that their batteries (as this seems to be the main issue of this thread) probably cost less than most people pay retail for their nano tech batteries anyway.

[andrewc]

I'm more concerned with the 3metre track width rule? Unless I've misunderstood it there's plenty of tracks that will struggle. We race indoors and whenever we plan a track layout we try to have a 3m straight, and work on 2.4m width for the rest of the track. In our region (South East) I'm not convinced any of the tracks fit those dimensions? 3m start and turn one, fair enough. Whole track? Not so convinced.

[matdodd]

Originally Posted by dwp102

I think the point is Tony, that the aim should be to decrease the cost of racing, not add to it. Ironically half (I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong) the people doing the nationals don't even pay for their equipment anyway, or they are heavily discounted, to the point that their batteries (as this seems to be the main issue of this thread) probably cost less than most people pay retail for their nano tech batteries anyway.

How does having a EB lipo list add to the cost of racing? There are cheap lipo's on the list.
If the cost of racing is the issue why has no one proposed a different tyre rule?
Everyone seems to focus on the cost of lipo's and motors all the time.

Lets say you buy 2 packs of lipo's of the list and for arguments sake it costs you an extra £40 total compared to lipo's that aren't on the list.
I was running 2 year old lipo's last week at Kidderminster so the lipos I was running that have done nationals/regionals and club racing for 2 years have cost me £20 a year more.
I see club racers running brand new sets of tyres at club meetings all the time at £15 a set and people running 2 or 3 sets of tyres at regional's and nationals the vast majority at the top run 4-8 sets a day!
So the simple way to reduce costs of racing limit how many new tyres you can run. That will save almost every racer in the country a lot more money than £20 a year but that will start a load more problems i'm sure.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by RudeTony

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

Spot on

[Chris Elworthy]

I agree with Matt,

Since the forward motor boom the need for new tyres has become even more prominent due to the more direct drive and needed to rely on the grip from the spike instead of using the mechanical grip that a conventional mid motor generates.

Id expect even if we were limited to say 3 sets of dry (schu yellow/BB whites) per meeting it wouldn't effect the overall standings, the top guys will still be at the sharp end but would make for a fairer playing field for the rest of us who pay for our own tyres.

Sadly though, it's highly unlikely to happen.



Chris

[DCM]

Originally Posted by RudeTony

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

OK, lets put this in my perspective, up till about 6 months ago, there were 3 of us being competitive, 1 enjoying and 2 playing with it, so those two lipo's arefor 4 of us, so that is £160, that's many MANY weeks club racing or a months petrol in the car, errr, 3 months electricity.... etc...

As for what the BRCA check, let's see, as far as I am aware they take a picture of the cell, the measure it to make sure it is compliant of the rules, they weigh it so that these can go on the EB list as a 'sample' and drivers cells can be checked against it, they also request a paperwork trail to ensure the person/company distributing has the correct insurance etc and that the battery has the correct certification. I don't see anywhere where they physically check them for build quality etc, what is the point, the certification they go through to be transported covers that, and ALL LiPo cells have to go through that careless as to whether they are BRCA homologated or not. Now, putting on my Rick Assessment hat on, my Engineering hat on, even my H&S, the only thing that is of importance is the Certification, the rest is to ensure trail back in case of incident (1) and that they have a reference point in case of suspected cheating. Now, go back to (1) that goes out of the window if you buy from overseas.

My argument is, in the end, I can fully understand the need for the EB list as a controlled rule for running at national, but I have ALWAYS questioned the need for it at regionals or club, it detracts from encouraging people to expand their horizons when it comes to racing. If someone chooses to go to a national, then it is up to them to look at the rules and be fully compliant.

I do that some common sense is used tomorrow and this whole issue gets put to bed.

[Rich D]

Has anybody heard of a novice driver being excluded at a regional due to not having a battery from the list ? I haven't heard of such an incident personally. Back in the good old days it was five packs of cells at £52.50 a pack. That was in the early nineties. Not sure what all the fuss is about. My saddle LIPOS were £60 each. They are two years old and still lively enough for use at club or national events. I'll likely get £20 a pack if I wanted to sell them. The biggest costs are the tyres and the fuel to get to the meetings not the LIPOS.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Rich D

Has anybody heard of a novice driver being excluded at a regional due to not having a battery from the list ? I haven't heard of such an incident personally. Back in the good old days it was five packs of cells at £52.50 a pack. That was in the early nineties. Not sure what all the fuss is about. My saddle LIPOS were £60 each. They are two years old and still lively enough for use at club or national events. I'll likely get £20 a pack if I wanted to sell them. The biggest costs are the tyres and the fuel to get to the meetings not the LIPOS.

And those 5 packs did not last a year let alone two....and we had lists then too....

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DCM

OK, lets put this in my perspective, up till about 6 months ago, there were 3 of us being competitive, 1 enjoying and 2 playing with it, so those two lipo's arefor 4 of us, so that is £160, that's many MANY weeks club racing or a months petrol in the car, errr, 3 months electricity.... etc...

As for what the BRCA check, let's see, as far as I am aware they take a picture of the cell, the measure it to make sure it is compliant of the rules, they weigh it so that these can go on the EB list as a 'sample' and drivers cells can be checked against it, they also request a paperwork trail to ensure the person/company distributing has the correct insurance etc and that the battery has the correct certification. I don't see anywhere where they physically check them for build quality etc, what is the point, the certification they go through to be transported covers that, and ALL LiPo cells have to go through that careless as to whether they are BRCA homologated or not. Now, putting on my Rick Assessment hat on, my Engineering hat on, even my H&S, the only thing that is of importance is the Certification, the rest is to ensure trail back in case of incident (1) and that they have a reference point in case of suspected cheating. Now, go back to (1) that goes out of the window if you buy from overseas.

My argument is, in the end, I can fully understand the need for the EB list as a controlled rule for running at national, but I have ALWAYS questioned the need for it at regionals or club, it detracts from encouraging people to expand their horizons when it comes to racing. If someone chooses to go to a national, then it is up to them to look at the rules and be fully compliant.

I do that some common sense is used tomorrow and this whole issue gets put to bed.

Common sense to me is keep the list..... It won't effect you or ur kids at your club level.

Now had u bough lipo of the list, for the last two years, your kids could be using them now as hand downs....

[DCM]

Yes, I been there, 6 packs of cells at the start of the outdoors then, if you were going to a big winter series, another 6 packs, but back then I only had to fund myself, not a house and family to. And back then the list was, erm, the only cells you COULD buy anyways, and there was still the proviso in the rules to buy the shrink wrapped cheap cells for use to. Now we got more brands than we can shake a stick at and as been said before, there really isn't that many places manufacturing LiPO cells, I would be more concerned with the poor voltage detecting of chargers....

[Rich D]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

And those 5 packs did not last a year let alone two....

Exactly, and we struggled to get five minutes runtime out of them. Motors got thrown away after a dozen skims. Now they too seem to last forever.

Reducing the amount of compounds and or tread types available would help to reduce the cost of racing far more than this lipo debate.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Common sense to me is keep the list..... It won't effect you or ur kids at your club level.

Now had u bough lipo of the list, for the last two years, your kids could be using them now as hand downs....

Two years ago, the BRCA didn't seem concerned about how regions ran their regionals, hence the big outcry this year when there was a clamp down.

[Ben The Bike]

Wouldn't it be easier if the rule was that the car and spare/tuning parts can't cost more than X amount total, again with receipts to prove it. So if you buy ridiculously expensive tyres, you won't be able to get a good motor.

If the lipos have to be checked so stringently, why don't the brca just have handout lipos that are all the same?