Is technology outpacing driver skill?

[bedsrcmcc]

It’s the elephant in the room that no one seems to want to give an honest answer to, so I’m going to put my head above the trench and see what happens!

I’ve been racing at club level now for more than 35 years and yes I still have the bug for RC racing. Even after time away from racing to have a family, I’m back again doing what I love week in week out. Like a stick of rock, cut me in half and I have ‘Club Racer’ running all the way through me. I have no intention of doing regionals or nationals, it’s just not my thing (have done them many years ago now and never liked it – drivers taking it far too seriously) but if that’s your thing I have no objections to you doing it and good luck in the big regionals that you enter yourself into.

So let’s get back to what makes me tick – CLUB RACING. This is about like-minded racers turning out at their local club each week to have some fun, enjoy some pit side banter and also on track action. We all go home, hopefully, having had a great evening (or day) of racing and look forward to doing it all again in 7 days. These clubs run their own Championships which we all participate in and hopefully walk away at the end with a little bit of plastic with our name engraved on a little brass plaque. If we don’t get one it doesn’t matter because that’s not why we turned up in the first place. Club racers go racing for fun and they want to have some great wheel to wheel racing on track and that’s that.

OK, so I’ve set the scene, now let me introduce the elephant in the room – Brushless/LiPo technology.

Yes, the Brushless/LiPo technology has changed the face of RC racing, in the main for the very good of our hobby. However there is a darker side to this technology, especially when it comes to electronics and that is the feeling I have that the technology is increasing at a far faster rate than driver skill is which means we are getting faster and faster cars and RC drivers who are unable to control these cars at such increased speeds, especially those who are new to the hobby.

I see it week in week out at our own club (and I’m sure we are not the only club that experience these issues) where those new to the RC hobby are kitting themselves out with equipment that far far exceeds their driving ability. It makes me laugh when I see people spending £100’s on equipment when they haven’t even learnt how to drive a car around a corner, let alone a lap, without either hitting the track edging or a competitors car! I feel like a scratched record when I say week in week out – drive slower and you’ll improve your lap times.

It also makes me laugh that I see members having spent a fortune on the very latest Hobbywing ESC and the latest motor and the hottest new LiPos that have zillions of amps and mega buckets of capacity available to them at the flick of a switch! Funny then that the expensive ESC has to run at its slowest setting (blinky) to even race in the class - GT12 in this case. So why do they do it – Simples (as a well-known Meerkat would say) it’s because they see highly skilled drivers with years of experience behind them (often sponsored drivers too) who have all the latest kit and they think they must be driving so well because they have all the best kit – WRONG. The best piece of kit they have at their disposal are the hands/brain that have hold of the transmitter on the rostrum and no amount of money can give you that.

I came up with a potential solution for the problem at the club I run with the introduction of a ‘Back to Basics’ class which has now morphed into a class I call 1:12 Trucks. The focus is on the driver and not the kit so we run a cheap standard Core ESC, basic Core LiPo (3200 only) and a 17.5 Stock Speed Passion motor (no other motor allowed). The racing in this class which we introduced for the first time for our club’s Spring Championship that has just finished has been fantastic. The drivers come off the rostrum after each race with huge grins on their faces. Whoever says that racing ‘slow’ RC cars is boring needs their head sorted. I haven’t had so much fun with RC racing for a long time and it takes me back to the good old days of what got me into RC racing in the first place – the fun factor.

Now this is the big issue in my mind that the manufacturers need to be made aware of. The future of RC racing relies on us all getting the PlayStation Generation out of their bedrooms and racing wheel to wheel with others. We have seen members come and go at our club and two main reasons why members leave are – fed up of being hit by other drivers and the fun factor is being taken over by a competitive win at all costs atmosphere.

What the hobby needs (and I hope a manufacturer is reading this) is for all the companies to work together to produce a Clubman’s standard set of motors, LiPos and ESCs that are simple plug and play items that have no means of being adjusted or upgraded firmware added to them, but are built to the same high quality standards of their more expensive and functionally enhanced products. Drivers can choice their preferred brand but in the knowledge that a Clubman’s Novak is the same spec as a Reedy one, or Hobbywing one. That way, clubs up and down the country where the vast majority of 1000’s of RC racers enjoy their hobby can help nurture the talent and members of tomorrow.

Don’t get me wrong, I love racing RC cars and racing them fast (but they are being run fast and under control), but I’m also keen to ensure we can encourage new blood into the hobby and keep them coming back week after week and provide them with the kit that will allow them to learn how to drive before they even think of going fast.

OK, rant over

However I would be interested to read what others think about this topic…

[mattr]

Originally Posted by bedsrcmcc

However I would be interested to read what others think about this topic…

You should have used the search function. This comes up in one form or other every few weeks. :wink:
In summary:
You can't change people, they always want the shiniest toys they can afford.
Most clubs have some sort of clubman class anyway, if people want to use over specced kit for it, it's their look out.
Give better advice to new starters.
Doesn't really apply to all classes. Slow motors in 1800 gram 4wd buggies outdoors is a bit dull. Slow motors in sub-kilo gt12, pan cars etc indoors isn't actually all that Slow.

Other than that, people who race classes/facilities that suit clubman style racing agree, people who race classes/facilities that don't suit clubman, disagree.
FWIW, I'd prefer a clubman style of racing when we drive indoors, a 6.5t motor is far too much grunt, outdoors, I'd get bored with anything much slower than a boosted 10.5t, it'd take 10 seconds to get down the straight.

[bedsrcmcc]

Completely agree about outdoor off-roading, you do need a fairly quicker setup.

We always try to inform newbies about the perils of going too fast too soon and not spending a fortune when it simply is not needed.

We did a random check on some cars recently and found that some drivers had not even calibrated their ESC. That's why I stand by my thoughts that the manufacturers have to do their bit to help those new to the hobby by providing plug and play equipment that makes it easy for those new to the hobby get their first foot on the ladder.

However it seems that SPEED sells and therefore these ideas will probably fall on deaf ears

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by bedsrcmcc

It also makes me laugh that I see members having spent a fortune on the very latest Hobbywing ESC and the latest motor and the hottest new LiPos that have zillions of amps and mega buckets of capacity available to them at the flick of a switch! Funny then that the expensive ESC has to run at its slowest setting (blinky) to even race in the class - GT12 in this case. So why do they do it – Simples (as a well-known Meerkat would say) it’s because they see highly skilled drivers with years of experience behind them (often sponsored drivers too) who have all the latest kit and they think they must be driving so well because they have all the best kit – WRONG. The best piece of kit they have at their disposal are the hands/brain that have hold of the transmitter on the rostrum and no amount of money can give you that.


However I would be interested to read what others think about this topic…

your sig line....


Current classes/cars I race in:
GT12: Schumacher SupaStox : XERUN V3.1 ESC | Thunder Power 13.5 Motor | Futaba 2.4GHz | Intellect LiPo



Says it all!!

[bedsrcmcc]

I couldn't agree more

However, I can drive it around a track without hitting the track on every corner

My point is really aimed at beginners, not RC drivers who've been racing for 35 years though...

Having said that, I've rested the GT12 for the last Club Championship to focus on the 1:12 Trucks that I introduced to the club and believe me, I've never had so much fun with the basic setup. Last Friday's meeting was one of the best meetings I've ever had in 35 years with some sensational wheel to wheel racing with fellow 1:12 Truck racer Al Petts We both came away from racing with HUGE

[adey]

I see a similar thing at our club especially with the smaller eighteenth scale buggies. They are seriously fast and the less experienced racers just smash into things and cause chaos. I tell people to go slower and not crash and over the five minute race they will improve their times drastically but most never listen. I also have noticed that some of the ready to run cars that turn up are also rockets in a straight line and far too fast for the people using them. I think that even the basic brushless electronics today are now so powerful that beginners struggle to cope with the speed or power delivery.

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by adey

I also have noticed that some of the ready to run cars that turn up are also rockets in a straight line and far too fast for the people using them. I think that even the basic brushless electronics today are now so powerful that beginners struggle to cope with the speed or power delivery.

My point exactly - manufacturers I guess just want to sell equipment, but it would be great if they considered the club scene too.

I've heard that the BRCA are thinking of introducing a slower clubmans class for GT12 - but how do we deal with members who've got faster setups? They will not be going out and getting the slower motors - so what class do you put them into?

[sosidge]

There isn't any real advantage to running an expensive LiPo or and expensive ESC in a blinky class - the problem is that people see the fastest cars running those parts and perceive it is the electrics, whereas really it is the time spent in setting up the powerplant and the skill in driving it.

I don't think that 1s 13.5 GT12 is particularly fast, it is still a driveable class for all the abilities I have seen trying it.

In touring, I don't think that 17.5 2s is too fast either. All abilities that I have seen can cope with the cars, yes there are some very fast cars in the class but again that is down to time spent on prep and driving rather than the superiority of any particular electronics.

Technology hasn't made RC too fast or too expensive. Brushless and LiPo have actually made the (longer-term) costs far cheaper. The cars are a good speed - it is people that make it expensive!

[bedsrcmcc]

We ran a special evening recently to offer advice and guidance of chassis setup - focussing on what to do away from the track with no mention of speed.

2 drivers turned up!

Maybe that says it all

[beale]

I am trying to help with a couple of young lads at my local small club that have 13t ezrun's when 21t would still be too fast, 1 of them listens and is improving but the other watches the fast guys go round and thinks he should go faster.
I proved the point to them by reducing their end points to 50% and said when the can get round the track for a few laps without a crash they get 1%. They both improved in their next heat.
Unfortunately the 1 that doesn't listen Sussed out how to put it back and has not improved at all, his brother is clocking extra laps each heat generally!
I will reset end points (calibrate handset to 50%) on ESC next meet and hopefully this will sort that problem.
It has also improved my driving by reducing speed I went from boosted 13.5 to blinky then 17.5 blinky and I am still getting lap counts in the same ball park at a few clubs but enjoying it more as I have to string good laps together to make a pass not just blitz the straight.
A club mans class will mean buying new equipment so that isn't really an option everywhere so I will keep working with individuals in the hope that they will listen and improve

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by sosidge

There isn't any real advantage to running an expensive LiPo or and expensive ESC in a blinky class

So if manufacturers are creating ESC with blinky settings, surely there is a need for a basic ESC that is perfect for the beginner with no experience of RC racing that is simply plug and play?

However, I totally agree that the modern day brushless/LiPo kit makes is so much easier in terms of maintenance for anyone who goes racing. However 13.5 in GT12 even with blinky is in my view too fast for a complete beginner. These motors are faster than the good old days of 27T stock brushed motors.

We stopped running Touring Cars because they were getting too fast and leaving the track. Maybe those looking for outright speed should consider off-road because on-road requires much more finesse and far more control and is less forgiving too.

...when you have a driver pulling his car off the track because they are fed up of being hit all the time, we need to do something!

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by beale

I am trying to help with a couple of young lads at my local small club that have 13t ezrun's when 21t would still be too fast, 1 of them listens and is improving but the other watches the fast guys go round and thinks he should go faster.
I proved the point to them by reducing their end points to 50% and said when the can get round the track for a few laps without a crash they get 1%. They both improved in their next heat.
Unfortunately the 1 that doesn't listen Sussed out how to put it back and has not improved at all, his brother is clocking extra laps each heat generally!
I will reset end points (calibrate handset to 50%) on ESC next meet and hopefully this will sort that problem.
It has also improved my driving by reducing speed I went from boosted 13.5 to blinky then 17.5 blinky and I am still getting lap counts in the same ball park at a few clubs but enjoying it more as I have to string good laps together to make a pass not just blitz the straight.

I've been saying this, not just to kids, for years and it still doesn't seem to work! Even when you do reduce the speed they moan but suddenly they improve their times

But a week later they've put the speed back up and surprise surprise - guess what happens!!!!

I just worry about all the other drivers who keep getting hit - how do you think they feel?

[bedsrcmcc]

For the last 2 rounds of our Spring Championship we had a race ref stand on the rostrum and watch every race, giving drivers a strike for poor driving and with 3 strikes they would get 5 points deducted, another 3 strikes and 10 points and so on.

Guess what - everyone drove perfectly for those two rounds.

Now, take the ref away and what happens - I'll let you decide that one....

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by bedsrcmcc

My point exactly - manufacturers I guess just want to sell equipment, but it would be great if they considered the club scene too.

I've heard that the BRCA are thinking of introducing a slower clubmans class for GT12 - but how do we deal with members who've got faster setups? They will not be going out and getting the slower motors - so what class do you put them into?

the manufactures don't force users to buy, clubs are capable of running "spec classes if they so desire, look at the rc10 class in the oople series...
or are you saying manufactures don't make budget gear? in your op you mention hobbywing, so lets look, they do a speedo for £40, so not their fault users buy a high end speedo.

Gt12 indeed does have two classes (rules done in june at egm)
super cup, car mods allowed 13.5 motor
production cup, car mods allowed 17.5

so to answer your question put them in the correct class!

[bedsrcmcc]

That's great news about the GT12 Classes, but...

If we are to introduce these two classes at our club, how do we get those beginners to go buy new 17.5 motors?

We did think of getting a batch of them at the club and asking drivers to swap their 13.5 for a 17.5 until we feel they are capable of driving safely and without hitting others on the track. Great idea in principle, but as I'm sure many clubs have, we have members who race at other clubs where they run 13.5 so I guess we are stuck between a rock and a hard place!

Trust me, I've never told anyone new to RC racing to go get all the latest most expensive kit around, in fact we advice them on our website to get the basic kit - but as everyone says, we can't enforce it.

We've bent over backwards to give people advice and guidance but if they don't listen what more can we do! It's such a shame as it spoils it for others who are really trying to improve their racing.

Arrhhhhhh!!!

[mattr]

TBH, when I started up again (after 25 years off), recommendation was 8.5t for 2wd buggy and 6.5t for 4wd.

All I did was crash.

Dropped to 13.5 and 10.5, didn't crash as much.

Few changes since, but still don't crash as much.

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by mattr

TBH, when I started up again (after 25 years off), recommendation was 8.5t for 2wd buggy and 6.5t for 4wd.

All I did was crash.

Dropped to 13.5 and 10.5, didn't crash as much.

Few changes since, but still don't crash as much.

My point exactly - it's not Rocket Science - so why do people ignore our advice

[mattr]

Cos everyone wants to be one of the fast drivers, without having been one of the slow drivers first.

[SlowOne]

It's a great question, and one that has been asked for all of the 35 years you've been racing. That we have never found an answer tells you all you need to know - people do not want to learn, they just want to keep up with the other racers.

In my nigh-40-years racing, people who come racing want to learn to race. Within limits, it doesn't matter much what kit they have or how fast the motor is. What matters is whether or not they have managed to build the car properly and set it up right. Much, if not all the problems with people not being able to handle their car is that it handles poorly due to being built wrong or set up wrong.

If the technology is problematic, it seems to me that it is in the arena of equivalence. Yes, maybe a 13.5 motor was equivalent to a 27T brushed five years ago, but it sure as hell isn't now. We are living in the past where better batteries allowed us to use faster motors, so every so often we upped the spec.

35T was a stock motor in the late '70s, then we went to 32T, then 27T and finally 19T. Over that period we went from 1200mAh cells to 4000mAh. Now we have 7000mAh+ and a good 13.5TBL is the equivalent of a 10T brushed. Back in the day you couldn't start with something too fast because it wasn't available, and the cars were simple to build right and set up.

If things are to change today, then we need to make classes slower, not faster. Each year we need to dial back the motors, or put limits on the cell capacity. In LMP12 and GT12 we've done that, going down from 10.5T open speedo, to 10.5 blinky to 13.5 blinky in LMP12. In GT12 we've introduced the 17.5T ProductionCup using the same cars as the 13.5T SuperCup.

No, we should not expect that everyone in the Beds club goes out and buys a 17.5 to encourage new drivers to get into that class too. So perhaps you could say that in 2016 the club will change its premier class to GT12 17.5, giving everyone plenty of time to get one. Start a 17.5 heat now, make the Club championship that class next year, and then run it as exclusively as you can in 2016.

If you believe that the speed is the the key to learning to drive, then do something long term to get that class into your club. After all, we've been trying to tackle this problem for over 30 years, so what's another one if it gets a class going that you feel will attract more drivers to your club?

As you have discovered, new drivers think lap time is a function of straight-line speed and therefore see no need to come and learn how to build and set up a car. Slowing things down makes the set up window wider and the cars easier to drive. In the end, slowing it down is the only fix you have when people can't see that set up is crucial, and their fundamental understanding of race cars is more power means more speed. Just my 2p...

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

In my nigh-40-years racing, people who come racing want to learn to race. Within limits, it doesn't matter much what kit they have or how fast the motor is. What matters is whether or not they have managed to build the car properly and set it up right. Much, if not all the problems with people not being able to handle their car is that it handles poorly due to being built wrong or set up wrong.

What a great reply, I couldn't have put it any better

As I mentioned above in relation to your quote - we held a night for helping drivers with the setup and only 2 drivers turned up!

I actually like your idea of forewarning the club that we would introduce the 17.5 class by default next season, that gives them 6 months to sort themselves out and either drive well enough to stick with 13.5, or move across to the Production Cup for 17.5 motors.

As I've already mentioned, we introduced the Trucks as a back to basics class and it's really working well - enforceing 1 type of ESC and LiPo and Motor has really made a huge difference and is the best fun I've had in a long time, though I will be getting my GT12 up and running again before the years out