china f1 gp

[Fabs]

Maybe they've updated the car a little bit, they said in the press conference yesterday that they had parts coming for today just like Renault. I don't think Red Bull needs to go for the double diffuser TBH but they certainly know better than me how to quantify the gain in their case.

On the strange side of things, if you look at hamilton's 3 lap times, he's nearly as fast in Q1 as in Q2, which means probably that he was already running super light in Q1 to make sure he got through.

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by Fabs

Maybe they've updated the car a little bit, they said in the press conference yesterday that they had parts coming for today just like Renault. I don't think Red Bull needs to go for the double diffuser TBH but they certainly know better than me how to quantify the gain in their case.

On the strange side of things, if you look at hamilton's 3 lap times, he's nearly as fast in Q1 as in Q2, which means probably that he was already running super light in Q1 to make sure he got through.

Yeah Mclaren seemed less confident of the difference it would make to do that, but he's certainly further forward than before so maybe their winter issues have just made them wary of assuming gains in the windtunnel will convert?

Were Piquet/Kova... running the parts, cos if so the number two's look a bit kack compared to their teammates again!!

Also, didn't hear, did Vettel have problems? Why was he only doing one lap each session?

[Fabs]

Saving tyres I suppose.

There's only one set of parts for Renault and as for Kovalainen I am not sure if he has an updated car, ut I seem to recall reading that he didn't.

[BagofSkill]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

Well, plenty of scrutineers must not know that either, because the answer is no I was not dq'd! I was kindly asked (eg told!) to not do it again in order to avoid them a headache clarifying the rule etc! I also know of an identical issue with uneven wheelbases that was allowed in a different championship (and not told to change). That's before you even get into defences touring car teams have used such as "it started the race within the rules, but was damaged during it"!

Yes, you're right. Plenty of scrutineers DON'T know the rules as well as they should, but how can they, they voulenteer to be at the track in thier free time, it's infact only race directors/clerk of course etc that put the effort into to knowing the rules because of the autority they hold. Sounds like you got a lucky escape, and the 'told' not to do it again seems to back that up.
You are not normally dq'd if something happens during the event that puts you outside the rules, so long as you can proove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did start legal. This clause is called 'force majeure' and it's in every category from go-karts to F1 (though not in RC). Though it's affected by other rules. EG, if you fix 10kg ballast with an M3 screw, you start the race legal, it falls of at T1 and you finish underweight, that's not ok because there are rule about afixing ballast.

Originally Posted by DaveG28

I assume by the way your team never ever asks it's drivers to go offline on the slowing down lap to pick up rubber??

What a random statement! I don't know what your getting at with this.... .....and I've stopped caring.


And all this crap about 'spirit of the rules' is just that. I've said before the intention of the rules was to not allow double deck diffuseres. Two teams have said they asked the FIA Technical Delagate Charlie Whitting if they could use the loophole, they were told "NO", then Charlie turned around and told three other teams 'YES'. That's why the teams that were told 'no' are so cranky, and I'm with them.

The fact is that now the floodgates are open and Renault has proven that there is a big advantage in haveing the diffuser. There's no way renault were close to Red Bull in the first two races, but now one Renault is in a sandwich- proving the relative gain.

Now it's clear that the Red Bulls (and Renault) had to run very light on fuel (20kgs!) to get up the front, and maybe the Brawn isn't quite so suited to this track, but you still have 5 of the top 7 cars have the double diffuser, Hamilton and Alonso have found big gains by fitting it, Glocks having a bad weekend and Nakajima is, well, Nakajima.
So now there is no more arguing to do no matter how bitterly treated some teams feel. The rules have been set, everyone will have to adapt to the double diffuser and do the best they can.
End of.

[xjr14]

Well if everybody would take a second to take a look at the fuel-corrected laptimes from all of this years qualifyings I simply can`t cannot find huge improvements, gap-wise, by McLaren and Renault! For sure Alonso and Hamilton did a great job,but it`s mainly down to driver expertise. Alonso knew he just had to deliver with the ultra light car and Hamilton also was just a bit lucky to get into top ten, look at how close gap-wise he was in the races before to enter Q3. ...some mishaps (Massa, Glock, Kubica) and you`re in. Still a great effort and well done by Hamilton. But on the other hand that`s just what we expect by the two world champions, isn`t it?

So I don`t believe for a second the very well deserved imrpovements on McLaren`s and Renault`s side are anywhere near as big as some might think! For me it just proved slapping a double-decker on (or some 1,5 deck version in Mc`s case) won`t get you the big improvements that are floating around due two our "heros" Flavio and Horner. Kovalainen also did run a 1.5 deck diffuser yesterdy, but a slightly different one than Hamilton. Not seen an Mc closeups for today. The numbers floating around might correct on the bases of cfd calculations and windtunnel data, but we all know those numbers often get screwed up in the real world`s environment.

We`ll see how everyone`s strategy works out tomorrow, god I wish they had banned refuelling for this years championship, I hate this fuel strategy stuff! Great it`s banned next year! Hopefully the RedBull cars won`t fall apart. ...Man I love this years championship with it`s "screwed up world order"!

[xjr14]

Also Vettel said the weren`t saving tires, they were just VERY concerned about reliabillity and therefore only did one run per qualy. They almost did a "Ferrari" in Q1, 0.150 seconds slower and he would have been out in Q1!


...and GREAT job by Buemi!!!

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by xjr14

Well if everybody would take a second to take a look at the fuel-corrected laptimes from all of this years qualifyings I simply can`t cannot find huge improvements, gap-wise, by McLaren and Renault! For sure Alonso and Hamilton did a great job,but it`s mainly down to driver expertise. Alonso knew he just had to deliver with the ultra light car and Hamilton also was just a bit lucky to get into top ten, look at how close gap-wise he was in the races before to enter Q3. ...some mishaps (Massa, Glock, Kubica) and you`re in. Still a great effort and well done by Hamilton. But on the other hand that`s just what we expect by the two world champions, isn`t it?

So I don`t believe for a second the very well deserved imrpovements on McLaren`s and Renault`s side are anywhere near as big as some might think! For me it just proved slapping a double-decker on (or some 1,5 deck version in Mc`s case) won`t get you the big improvements that are floating around due two our "heros" Flavio and Horner. Kovalainen also did run a 1.5 deck diffuser yesterdy, but a slightly different one than Hamilton. Not seen an Mc closeups for today. The numbers floating around might correct on the bases of cfd calculations and windtunnel data, but we all know those numbers often get screwed up in the real world`s environment.

We`ll see how everyone`s strategy works out tomorrow, god I wish they had banned refuelling for this years championship, I hate this fuel strategy stuff! Great it`s banned next year! Hopefully the RedBull cars won`t fall apart. ...Man I love this years championship with it`s "screwed up world order"!

Totally with you on wishing refuelling was banned!! I personally think removing fuel stops but providing tire options which led to some running through without a stop and others going for softer tires and stops would maybe help the racing and lead to good climaxes to races!

[bodgit]

Pre-race weights & provisional grid - top three running light


For the 2009 season, the FIA are making public the weights of all cars ahead of the race start to help give an idea of relative fuel loads. The cars that made Q3 are weighed after qualifying, while the weights of the remaining cars must be declared by their teams shortly after the session.

Below is the provisional grid for China with each car's weight. Note - Toyota’s Timo Glock has dropped from 14th to 19th after his gearbox change.

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 644kg
2. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 637
3. Mark Webber, Red Bull, 646.5
4. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 661
5. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 659
6. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 664.5
7. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 650.5
8. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 673.5
9. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 679
10. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 673
11. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 679
12. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 697
13. Felipe Massa, Ferrari, 690
14. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 682.7
15. Sebastien Bourdais, Toro Rosso, 690
16. Nelson Piquet, Renault, 697.9
17. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 659
18. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 648
19. Timo Glock, Toyota, 652
20. Giancarlo Fisichella, Force India, 679.5
looks to me the Brawns are doing well, the others will have to come in early to refuel so brawns may be able to open up a good few seconds in the extra laps they will have before they have to come in

[xjr14]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

Totally with you on wishing refuelling was banned!! I personally think removing fuel stops but providing tire options which led to some running through without a stop and others going for softer tires and stops would maybe help the racing and lead to good climaxes to races!

Couldn`t agree more!!! A tactic the old Benetton team tried very often in 1989/1990, great fun for the spectators! I have no clue what they have planned tire-wise for next year, but I have a fealing they screw up the refuelling ban and stick to the "you have to use both compounds during the race" rule.

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by BagofSkill

You are not normally dq'd if something happens during the event that puts you outside the rules, so long as you can proove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did start legal. This clause is called 'force majeure' and it's in every category from go-karts to F1 (though not in RC). Though it's affected by other rules. EG, if you fix 10kg ballast with an M3 screw, you start the race legal, it falls of at T1 and you finish underweight, that's not ok because there are rule about afixing ballast.



What a random statement! I don't know what your getting at with this.... .....and I've stopped caring.

Your first quote: I know the clause, but if you look into cases of when it has been used at Touribg Car level, you can see how ambiguous it is in practice.

Your second quote, well your right not to care (Fabs has already shown up how little I know!), but it's not random at all, assuming f1 teams pick up crap on the slowing down lap for the same reasons people in other championships do (rideheight/at a stretch weight), then doing so is clearly against the "intent" of the rules as you put it, as it allows you to run illegally during the race but look legal afterwards. Although I doubt anyone really takes that risk!

But your right, it's got boring, I clearly don't have enough technical/rules knowledge, and your clearly too cranky about it to be reasonable from a process side, so it's not helping anyone!!

On a note that can hopefully be done without argument:

Is the Red Bull rear end packaging mutually exclusive to double deck diffuser?
If it is, given that they are very competitive, would they definitely gain from scrapping the current solution and getting the fancy diffuser?
Why have all the teams gone down the diffuser route and not tried to copy the Red Bull, would it not be as effective/cheaper??

Am genuinely asking those out of curiosity, does anyone know?

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by bodgit

Pre-race weights & provisional grid - top three running light


For the 2009 season, the FIA are making public the weights of all cars ahead of the race start to help give an idea of relative fuel loads. The cars that made Q3 are weighed after qualifying, while the weights of the remaining cars must be declared by their teams shortly after the session.

Below is the provisional grid for China with each car's weight. Note - Toyota’s Timo Glock has dropped from 14th to 19th after his gearbox change.

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 644kg
2. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 637
3. Mark Webber, Red Bull, 646.5
4. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 661
5. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 659
6. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 664.5
7. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 650.5
8. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 673.5
9. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 679
10. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 673
11. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 679
12. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 697
13. Felipe Massa, Ferrari, 690
14. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 682.7
15. Sebastien Bourdais, Toro Rosso, 690
16. Nelson Piquet, Renault, 697.9
17. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 659
18. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 648
19. Timo Glock, Toyota, 652
20. Giancarlo Fisichella, Force India, 679.5
looks to me the Brawns are doing well, the others will have to come in early to refuel so brawns may be able to open up a good few seconds in the extra laps they will have before they have to come in

Kiki and Hamilton very heavy too, is it definitely fuel (eg unladen are all the cars at minimum weight)?

[DaveG28]

Who's peoples tips for the race then?

A sneaky Barrichello win??

[bodgit]

Assuming that this is the race fuel laden wieght, it would be good to know the wieght of the drivers so we can see if total wieght balances things out, but there is a lot of kilo,s between JB, alonso and lewis

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by xjr14

Couldn`t agree more!!! A tactic the old Benetton team tried very often in 1989/1990, great fun for the spectators! I have no clue what they have planned tire-wise for next year, but I have a fealing they screw up the refuelling ban and stick to the "you have to use both compounds during the race" rule.

I seem to remember a few times where Prost would be a master at that type of strategy. Look useless then suddenly be in the lead with not long to go! Used to hate him for it (I was always a Senna fan!) but you had to admire the skill!

[BagofSkill]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

Your first quote: I know the clause, but if you look into cases of when it has been used at Touribg Car level, you can see how ambiguous it is in practice.

It's true, but it's mostly because it's based on a judgment call by officials.

Originally Posted by DaveG28

......assuming f1 teams pick up crap on the slowing down lap for the same reasons people in other championships do (rideheight/at a stretch weight), then doing so is clearly against the "intent" of the rules as you put it, as it allows you to run illegally during the race but look legal afterwards. Although I doubt anyone really takes that risk!

In F1 you pick up marbles for weight. (There's no min ride hight rule). The reason you do it is not to bring a light car up to weight, but as insurance. You will get marbles anyway, but if you delibratly get as many as you can you can because you run so close to the minimum weight anyway that if burned too much oil or something and so you were 0.1 kg underweight and you didn't pick up rubber you'd be looking foolinsh. I can't explain why it's not banned, or min weight without tyres, I guess for logistics. There were other things similar in the past that were banned, like being able to refil fluids, then teams running 30kg water tanks empy in the race and then filling them up in parc ferme.

Originally Posted by DaveG28

But your right, it's got boring, I clearly don't have enough technical/rules knowledge, and your clearly too cranky about it to be reasonable from a process side, so it's not helping anyone!!

Sorry to seem cranky, I'm not a cranky guy! see...
I'm just trying to get the facts across so eveyone can read and see a bit more from the inside than you normally get.

Originally Posted by DaveG28

Is the Red Bull rear end packaging mutually exclusive to double deck diffuser?
If it is, given that they are very competitive, would they definitely gain from scrapping the current solution and getting the fancy diffuser?
Why have all the teams gone down the diffuser route and not tried to copy the Red Bull, would it not be as effective/cheaper??

It is exclusive of the diffuser. The took the oportunity to lower the diff and run pull rod suspension to rockers and damper mounted near the floor instead of on top like every one else.
It's the sort of thing where it's worth maybe 0.1 sec a lap, not alot more. Where as the diffuser is worth 0.3 sec min. When the're as well developed as the Brawn you can double that or more. So For Red Bull, if they can fit a new gearbox and a diffuser, they'll have a net gain on speed, but it'll cost them several million.

The reason Red Bull are so fast is simply because they've made the fasted non-diffuser car on the grid. Credit goes to Adrian Newey and his team. Newey always seems to do well during big rule changes, even if his cars are always fragile!

[BagofSkill]

Originally Posted by bodgit

Assuming that this is the race fuel laden wieght, it would be good to know the wieght of the drivers so we can see if total wieght balances things out, but there is a lot of kilo,s between JB, alonso and lewis

The published weight include the drivers. The car + driver must weight 605kg (or more). The Ballast in the cars is used to compensate for light drivers. So basically take the published weight and subtract 605 to find the fuel load.
I think China is 1.7-2.0kg fuel burn per lap.

[BagofSkill]

Originally Posted by xjr14

Couldn`t agree more!!! A tactic the old Benetton team tried very often in 1989/1990, great fun for the spectators! I have no clue what they have planned tire-wise for next year, but I have a fealing they screw up the refuelling ban and stick to the "you have to use both compounds during the race" rule.

Bennetton used (were kinda forced onto) this tactic because they were on Pirelli Tyres which weren't as fast over a lap but were much more durable.

That kind of what they're trying to reproduce by forcing the hard/soft options. Problem is everyone tends to use the soft tyres at simlar times because that's what makes sence when you work out strategy timings.

[DaveG28]

Newey certainly has the record to prove his ability! Hopefully this season will have lots of ebb and flow as it all develops and a good few teams/drivers are still in with a shout near the end of the year!

[Fabs]

Originally Posted by xjr14

Well if everybody would take a second to take a look at the fuel-corrected laptimes from all of this years qualifyings I simply can`t cannot find huge improvements, gap-wise, by McLaren and Renault! For sure Alonso and Hamilton did a great job,but it`s mainly down to driver expertise. Alonso knew he just had to deliver with the ultra light car and Hamilton also was just a bit lucky to get into top ten, look at how close gap-wise he was in the races before to enter Q3. ...some mishaps (Massa, Glock, Kubica) and you`re in. Still a great effort and well done by Hamilton. But on the other hand that`s just what we expect by the two world champions, isn`t it?

So I don`t believe for a second the very well deserved imrpovements on McLaren`s and Renault`s side are anywhere near as big as some might think! For me it just proved slapping a double-decker on (or some 1,5 deck version in Mc`s case) won`t get you the big improvements that are floating around due two our "heros" Flavio and Horner. Kovalainen also did run a 1.5 deck diffuser yesterdy, but a slightly different one than Hamilton. Not seen an Mc closeups for today. The numbers floating around might correct on the bases of cfd calculations and windtunnel data, but we all know those numbers often get screwed up in the real world`s environment.

We`ll see how everyone`s strategy works out tomorrow, god I wish they had banned refuelling for this years championship, I hate this fuel strategy stuff! Great it`s banned next year! Hopefully the RedBull cars won`t fall apart. ...Man I love this years championship with it`s "screwed up world order"!

I'm not sure where you don't see an improvement ?

Take Renault, they barely made it to Q3 last time round and this time alonso was comfortably there, this is with a light car where fuel load has no effect or very little effect.

And in Q3 he's 3/10th up on the brawns, which are 22kg lighter. It's alleged that you lose about 3/10th every 10kg so in effect he's 3/10th off them, which is much better than has been before.

For a package that has been fitted on the car overnight and had done a grand total of 3 laps before qualifying, I think this just totally PROVES that it works.

[MattW]

We all know that the diffuser makes a difference - it's fairly obvious. However, i have this gut feeling (admittedly based on an article in Autosport a couple of weeks ago) that it isn't worth as much as some would like to believe. The quote that came out of that one was along the lines of "if you're going to have something on your car that makes a lot of difference, make sure you have something that is visible that makes only a small difference....." another one I liked!!!

RBR have proved that there is more than one way to make a good car however. Clearly the Renault Engine has a fair number of ponies this year as well.