BRCA 1/10th Electric Off Road AGM Proposals

[_Bish_]

Originally Posted by Dr Fly

It actually makes my brain hurt, the AGM has been and gone, and this thread just wont die.

If only people put half the amount of effort into writing well thought out proposals, attending the AGMs, and contributing to the sport in a productive way, rather than taking to these forums to criticize a system which is run by volunteers, who give up a lot of time for no other reason than to give you guys something to do on a Sunday.

For those of you who are calling for web streamed AGM's and online voting. Great, good idea, are you also going to volunteer to give up lots of free time to implement it? in a secure way that cant be cheated? and fund the network infrastructure which supports it? You can always propose it at the next agm, but all you will be doing is providing a gigantic headache to the current committee. It may be a suprise to you, but the whole sport is run on a very small budget, and an incredible amount of goodwill by a dedicated few. So for those of you calling for this, i look forward to seeing your project plan, you can send it to me at wrcaonline@gmail.com

Its not the first time this has been said, but the BRCA and the 1/10th section are not just a faceless corporate entity, they are just a bunch of guys trying to make the sport as good as it can be. I have the pleasure of knowing most of them (Hi Bish)

The question of the hobbyking cells safety record is kind of irrelevant, I used some of there cells for club, and i was impressed. But if you removed the battery lists, that would open up the possibility of any unscrupulous Chinese (other countries are available) companies to make even cheaper cells which certainly could be a safety worry. It may be unlikely, but its food for thought. the point is that a line needs to be drawn somehow, and this is the line that we have. Any suggestions on a new line?

AN easy fix for this whole scenario would be for the importer to get the hobbyking cell certified. Its not a cost issue, so why havent they done so? I guarantee that not a single person has tried to lobby them with the same passion that i have seen here. From what i know of hobbyking, you will be completely ignored.

So please, and this is a direct plea, next time some of you feel like mounting a high horse, and putting the world to rights, please consider that our whole community is held together by some pretty selfless guys, who give up significant amounts of time so that you all have somewhere to go and have fun on a sunday. And some of these rules that you don't really agree with, are an added layer of protection for them.

Tom Owen
Wales regional rep, un-sponsored, and I drive a Losi, (don't hold that against me)

Hi Tom

[dazp83]

I've no idea who the board are but are any selling batteries or connected to shops etc? You say it like I'm the only one to think this? I explained the situation to a friend and without saying anything he said sounds dodgy. And as was said a few pages ago hobbyking hurts his sales.
I asked if it's a safety issue but was told no it's performance. Then it's safety? Then it's tax dodging?

[DCM]

Originally Posted by HOTSHOT III

Actually I think that this is an excellent comparison and it's completely relevant to this discussion. Surely buying an Mi5 directly from the manufacturer, in the country where it was made, should cost less than someone on the other side of the world buying the same thing after all shipping and import costs have been paid and the US importer, distributor and retailer have taken their cut?

The fact that MB Models (who BTW are an excellent shop) are selling them for £40 less than the people who are making the things in the 1st place is again very revealing, I mean MB must be making some money otherwise they wouldn't bother selling the kits so that means if the UK buying public buy from Schumacher directly that's an extra £40+ going straight in someone's pocket. Buying directly from the manufacturer should be cheaper than anywhere.

For me it's not the extra money but the principle. To build and race RC cars requires a good deal more intelligence than the average bloke down the pub and the industry would be wise to remember this. This is an insult to the intelligence of the buying public in this country!

OK, so you don't know how this works do you.... if Schumacher were to sell the kits to the public at a price that it only has to concern with it's own profits.... why in the hell would shops stock it. Also, Schumacher are one of the only big manufacturers that you can buy direct from, CML don't for starters, the Tamiya distributors don't, nor Horizon Hobbies.... If they ALL did and at a price that is less than a shop could, then who would buy from the shops??

[DCM]

Originally Posted by dazp83

I've no idea who the board are but are any selling batteries or connected to shops etc? You say it like I'm the only one to think this? I explained the situation to a friend and without saying anything he said sounds dodgy. And as was said a few pages ago hobbyking hurts his sales.
I asked if it's a safety issue but was told no it's performance. Then it's safety? Then it's tax dodging?

Easy to find (although it is the 2013-14 committee on there currently), just go on the BRCA site.

The list, as defined by Graham North and a few others who have been honest is there to provide a paperwork trail just in case an issue arrises and an insurance claim ends up happening. They also check to ensure that the batteries have passed the relevant tests that are required by ALL LiPO batteries.

It is a MYTH that it is safety or performance, unless of course a new battery comes out that is super brilliant, it has to wait till the next January to be legal for use at a BRCA sanctioned event, that is National and unfortunately still, regionals.

[TheReferee]

Originally Posted by dazp83

I've no idea who the board are but are any selling batteries or connected to shops etc? You say it like I'm the only one to think this? I explained the situation to a friend and without saying anything he said sounds dodgy. And as was said a few pages ago hobbyking hurts his sales.
I asked if it's a safety issue but was told no it's performance. Then it's safety? Then it's tax dodging?

is that a yes I am corrupt? or just a bit "dodgy". are you saying I am making money on the side by supporting an EB list?.
these are straightforward questions which require a straightforward answer.

[JCJC]

I like a straightforward answer, wonder if I will see one............

[dazp83]

I'm saying if you're selling batteries then you'd have a vested interest in the list existing. Do you sell batteries? Yes or no?

[TheReferee]

Originally Posted by dazp83

I'm saying if you're selling batteries then you'd have a vested interest in the list existing. Do you sell batteries? Yes or no?

no
now you answer

[dazp83]

Then no I don't think you're benefitting from the list.

[TheReferee]

the chairman doesn't sell batteries, the secretary doesn't sell batteries, the national timekeeper doesn't sell batteries, the head referee doesn't sell batteries, the mid west rep doesn't sell batteries, the mid south reps don't sell batteries, the drivers rep doesn't sell batteries, the mid east rep doesn't sell batteries.
I spend my weekends over the summer and the winter refereeing events as fairly as I can, I give up my time so racers can race at well organised well run events, I travel at my own expense to committee meetings to discuss and decide on improving the racing experience for the competitors.
to be accused through innuendo of taking backhanders and lining my own pockets is frankly insulting.

[dazp83]

Yeah can tell you are insulted, touched a nerve. Like I was accused of being a criminal. As everyone keeps saying the brca is all of us isnt it? I never accused anyone of anything dodgy but retailers will want that list to exist so they have to buy batteries at over inflated prices.

[dazp83]

In order to stop repeating myself, thanks and goodnight

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by BazzerH

going way off topic here but half the moaning re the brca EB is price. Just did a quick price comparison on a schumacher mi5evo..

amain hobbies £312
schumacher uk price £380

try doing the same on some batteries.......

rip off britain

If it's such a rip-off how come model shops are closing and the ones that remain open are not owned by people with large houses, expensive cars and taking long holidays.

The US price does not include sales tax, the UK price has 20% sales tax (VAT). That's why hen you import from the US you have to pay VAT on it!! The cost of running a business is US is less than the UK including pay and business rates.

Sorry to let the facts get in the way of your good story...

Originally Posted by HOTSHOT III

Actually I think that this is an excellent comparison and it's completely relevant to this discussion. Surely buying an Mi5 directly from the manufacturer, in the country where it was made, should cost less than someone on the other side of the world buying the same thing after all shipping and import costs have been paid and the US importer, distributor and retailer have taken their cut?

The fact that MB Models (who BTW are an excellent shop) are selling them for £40 less than the people who are making the things in the 1st place is again very revealing, I mean MB must be making some money otherwise they wouldn't bother selling the kits so that means if the UK buying public buy from Schumacher directly that's an extra £40+ going straight in someone's pocket. Buying directly from the manufacturer should be cheaper than anywhere.

For me it's not the extra money but the principle. To build and race RC cars requires a good deal more intelligence than the average bloke down the pub and the industry would be wise to remember this. This is an insult to the intelligence of the buying public in this country!

An insult to my intelligence - no. My intelligence realises that the US price has no VAT on it, that the cost of running a business in the US... Just see the 'intelligent' answer above.

If you don't like the prices here buy somewhere else and then try to get any problems sorted...

Originally Posted by dicky14

Lipos don't just catch fire, end of. Its the user charging and discharging at stupid rates that cause problems. And also crap electrical installs. Who can honestly say that they have had a lipo fire due to charging at 1c.

And I am Richard Stain.

LiPos do just catch fire, just ask any exhibition manager at a big venue how many laptops go up on stands in a year. The Fire Officer at the NEC told us he has 'lost' three stands in the past two years by laptop fires - aka LiPo fires.

The chemistry of a LiPo means that it can grow crystals that puncture the separators and cause a short. That process is a function of the manufacturing process and the chemistry of the parts of a LiPo.

Cheap LiPos are made in factories where process control is lower than the best. It doesn't take much - a 0.005mm burr on the metal plates when being sheared, the smallest contaminant when mixing the chemicals, lack of control in pressing the plates and separators together.

The biggest cause of LiPo fires are faults in the manufacturing process, not in the charging and discharging. We can certainly make matters worse by over-volting during charging, or running them flat. But it is more often the case that just using them with those little faults built in can lead to a catastrophic failure.

Again, sorry to let facts get in the way of a good story...

[JCJC]

Originally Posted by dazp83

touched a nerve.

ouch, what do you mean ?

[Cockerill]

As I've just posted on fb:

'This whole thread highlights the single reason why online voting would kill the BRCA overnight... So many people who don't want/have a full understanding of the reasoning behind rules would be voting. At the AGM the rules can be clearly explained, with reasoning and then everyone can make an informed decision. Uninformed voting would be dangerous...'

The EB list is there for many many good reasons. Maybe some of those reasons are a little outdated today, but who knows where we are going? The list helps in that where ever we head the foundations for a solid set of rules are in place. The list has also got us to where we are. Without the EB list there would be no Lipo rules: No sizes, no availability, no cost cap, etc. it wouldn't be unrealistic to have to buy a different Lipo for each brand of car at whatever cost the manufacturer deemed. There wouldn't be any 'cheap' ones as they'd all be different!

And yes, the list does ensure you have to buy from a UK source. Whilst some think this is the worlds worst thing, without UK shops/distributors/manufacturers, there would be no RC Hobby industry, no racing, and no thread to argue on! I don't think it's massively unreasonable to for the UK sanctioning body to support UK business so there's some UK racing.

For those that wish to see the EB list abolished, is this in it's entirety? Just certain elements of it? If so, which elements? Or just so that you can use your cheap Lipo's that aren't currently on the list?

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by milesallen

Would it not be a lot simpler to put the voting online, everyone login with their BRCA number, have their vote then accept the results, save people travelling up and down the country and those not able to get there, maybe younger members, then everyone has had the opportunity to vote even if they didn't attend. 1 member one vote and all that. The committee set the motions or even put them up to the vote.

Nearly 2015 the internet and has been with us for sometime now, I'm sure it's simple enough to do, the AGM could be shown as a webinar. so all could watch and listen.

Out here in the real world thats's what happens save people travelling all over the place and save the planet a bit.

Only a suggestion, then all have had the chance to vote than those able to attend.

Simplz!

If it's so simple why doesn't someone get on with working out how to do it and put in a proposal at the AGM? Could you have a webinar with a potential of 10,000 people in the discussion?
If someone just puts in a proposal to "allow online voting" without being able to say how it would be implemented, then there's no point proposing it in the first place.

One member, one vote, is this restricted to one section or can we all vote for every section whether we have any interest in it at all?

The committee (which particular committee is that?) can't set the motions, nor make any changes that aren't voted for at the AGM.

Maybe some day everyone will read the handbook they get with their membership, and not ignore when proposals are asked for, and maybe even turn up at the AGM. When that happens there would be no more threads moaning about rule changes that never happened because people would have gone out and done something about it instead of expecting someone to do it for them.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by 200sx

Do the twenty or so AGM attendees have a vested interest in keeping the EB list? e.g. employees of manufacturers, distributors, importers etc.

If indeed they are, then 'cartel' is a good word to describe them.

Can you explain how a 'cartel' can be everyone who could be bothered to turn up?

A cartel would imply the AGM is restricted to people in the trade with a vested interest. In fact it's the complete opposite, anyone who is a BRCA member can turn up and vote however they want. Manufacturers representatives can be there, which is useful when considering all implications of proposals, but the 20 or so members that turned up at the AGM were there because they could be bothered to take some responsibility to the way off road is run in the UK and want to be involved.

If you think the 20 people there are part of some cartel or conspiracy between manufacturers, then just turn up with 30 mates and you could be guaranteed to get your way on any proposals.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by HOTSHOT III

Actually I think that this is an excellent comparison and it's completely relevant to this discussion. Surely buying an Mi5 directly from the manufacturer, in the country where it was made, should cost less than someone on the other side of the world buying the same thing after all shipping and import costs have been paid and the US importer, distributor and retailer have taken their cut?

The fact that MB Models (who BTW are an excellent shop) are selling them for £40 less than the people who are making the things in the 1st place is again very revealing

Yes, it's very revealing that Schumacher wants to keep model shops in business by only selling their products at the RRP. You are only seeing it as being "ripped off" because other shops are selling at a discount.

Retail sales aren't Schumachers business, their online site is there to ensure that their products are available and to be used as a last resort if your local shop doesn't stock or won't order the kits or parts you want. If Schumacher sold at a discount then why would any shops stock their products when you can buy cheaper direct from them.


As for prices in the US, remember the US prices are without any sales tax. That's only payable if they are sold to buyers in that state, and is added on afterwards. The UK prices include the 20% sales tax we have known as vat.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by Cockerill

As I've just posted on fb:

'This whole thread highlights the single reason why online voting would kill the BRCA overnight... So many people who don't want/have a full understanding of the reasoning behind rules would be voting. At the AGM the rules can be clearly explained, with reasoning and then everyone can make an informed decision. Uninformed voting would be dangerous...'

The EB list is there for many many good reasons. Maybe some of those reasons are a little outdated today, but who knows where we are going? The list helps in that where ever we head the foundations for a solid set of rules are in place. The list has also got us to where we are. Without the EB list there would be no Lipo rules: No sizes, no availability, no cost cap, etc. it wouldn't be unrealistic to have to buy a different Lipo for each brand of car at whatever cost the manufacturer deemed. There wouldn't be any 'cheap' ones as they'd all be different!

And yes, the list does ensure you have to buy from a UK source. Whilst some think this is the worlds worst thing, without UK shops/distributors/manufacturers, there would be no RC Hobby industry, no racing, and no thread to argue on! I don't think it's massively unreasonable to for the UK sanctioning body to support UK business so there's some UK racing.

For those that wish to see the EB list abolished, is this in it's entirety? Just certain elements of it? If so, which elements? Or just so that you can use your cheap Lipo's that aren't currently on the list?

Hi Tom, my issue isn't with the EB list for nationals, it was the proposal to allow regions to drop the EB list if it would help bolster numbers attending their regional events. It seems how and why the regional events are there and how they should run differ depending on how you look at them.

Batteries, the EB List and battery construction, the list is only there to confirm that the supplied sample meets and conforms to the construction rules laid down in the EB rules, so in there we have the maximum sizes for the batteries so that rules out the odd shaped ones etc. It also ensures that the supplier of the sample has the correct paperwork to support the application with regard to test certificates etc.

What the EB list doesn't do is stop people buying cells from overseas that are on the list, it doesn't stop many MANY different batteries being used at club etc which I think is where the danger lays.

Col, what is the fear of online voting. Anyone in the BRCA can rock up to ANY of the sections AGM/EGM and vote, you don't have to have an interest in that section. As for the Webinar, you could just stream the debate live and allow people to vote. I for one don't have the time or the funds to attend the AGM in person, but I could make the time to listen to the debate via a live stream and make an informed decision. Or is it the fact that if someone has the time/determination to make it to the AGM they theoretically are making a concious decision to improve the sport/hobby?

[SlowOne]

There's no fear of on-line voting. The issue we have come across at every Section AGM is that the original proposals are often poorly worded and could lead to rules that are not what is wanted.

Here's my favourite example. The TC Section received a proposal designed to limit the speed of the cars. The proposal said "Limit motors to a maximum of 12 turns." (Shows how old it is, that is 12 turns on a brushed motor!)

The idea the proposer had was to use nothing more powerful than a 12 turn motor, thus preventing the then-popular 7- and 8-turn motors sending speeds into the stratosphere. So what is wrong with that proposal?

A maximum of 12 turns means that you can only use motors with less than 12 turns - exactly the opposite of the proposer's intention! After a long debate in which the general mood of the meeting was that this was a good idea, I pointed out that in order to achieve their intention the rule had to say "a minimum of 12 turns."

I hope that illustrates the point. Another one was the proposal this year at the 10th Off-Road AGM to allow Regionals to run without the EB list. That was withdrawn before being discussed, let alone voted.

It isn't the lack of, or fear of the technology needed. It is the practical situation that proposals need discussion where new points and views are raised, amendments can be agreed and then a vote is taken. Straight votes on proposals are the exception, not the norm at AGMs. The number of people who change their vote in light of the discussions is high.

I would be in favour of 'remote' voting if it were for simple proposals that need a simple vote. However, our sport is complex and the people who help to run it find the current system works the best in getting the best rules into the book. HTH