NOTICE TO ALL YORCC MEMBERS.

[robpearce255]

NOTICE TO ALL YORCC MEMBERS. We had a great turn out last night for racing, unfortunately YET AGAIN only very few stayed to pack away (thank you to those who did) even after announcing it, appealing to help.

This has gone on too long. Those that always stay are fed up. We are a great club, but we need everyone to contribute to helping the club with this.

As a result, until better help with BOTH TRACK BUILDING AND PACKING UP, there will be NO PRACTICING at all through out the night! Certainly at meetings I run! We WILL run 10 car races if needs be to get the night moving for an early finish. Or may even do 2 rounds and finals!! Don't blame me, it's your own fault for not helping before now.
...
I asked kindly but got ignored yet again so things WILL change until we get help with this.

If this doesn't work we may consider LOCKING THE GATES before the finals and re-opening them after the trailer is packed. Or maybe some monetary deposit taken from every member seen fit and capable of helping, which would only be refunded to those who are seen to help build and or pack away the track.

This obviously excludes those racing with small children when we run late into the night, and also those unfit to lug the carpets around etc. Having said that, some of these are regular helpers with this!!

For too long this has gone on, where those capable of helping and no excuse to leave before the night is done, sneak off and leave only a few to do it. So racing WILL change in order to get this better!!

Thank you, enjoy the bank holiday.
No racing next week, it's half term.

[AC199]

Rob,

I think this blanket coverall statement is misguided but well intentioned. Last night I was so tired at the end of racing due to the late finish (Reason for which I will go into later) I had to stop on the A64 and get an hour before I felt safe to drive home. I'm sure there were lots of people in the tiredness boat.

While i'm not disagreeing with the fact that people should stay behind to help take the track down, and I havent for the last couple of weeks I've been racing for many reasons, there has to be some impetus taken by those running the meetings to make sure it starts on time, not 25 minutes late like it was last night. Keep the time between the rounds short and get the next race running. Marshalls need to get to their points faster as well, and I think sanctions against marshalls who dont turn up before the race is started should be implemented, you have 90 seconds which is plenty of time to dump your car and get to your marshall point. My other rants about marshalling will come in a separate thread.

Its all well and good stating the obvious outcome of people not staying to put the track away, but unless the problems are tackled which cause this, you might as well just cancel the meetings.

Also, if I turn up to a meeting and i find it gets cut to 2 rounds and a final because of this, I'll be wanting my money back, that kind of threat wont fly with me and you would lose a lot of people if you try it even once. I'm not travelling 35 miles to drive for 15 minutes over the course of 3 hours fella, no way. F*** that noise. I'll sell my stuff and quit before I get played that way. Rule number 1 of running a club is dont make idiotic comments, even in the heat of the moment, and that one shows just how much you still have to learn.

[farmboy]

Rule No 1 of a club surely is: everyone shares the burden of running the club? Whether it's a church fete committee or knitting circle, it needs people to get involved. Rob's only saying he - might - do that when he's on race control. Why not throw your hat into the ring and take on a couple of meetings yourself?

[NeilD]

I started racing at YORCC in 87ish and it was the same back then and was an ongoing problem as it is now. Many different ideas were tried to sort this problem out but in time things reverted back to only a few helping out. Rob is obviously angry over this but if he's running an event then why not try it? If it doesn't work then nothing is gained or lost.

[Dr Fly]

You sir sound like part of the problem, having been on the committee's of a couple of clubs I can happily say that members like you are not a valuable part of the club, and the club sounds much better off without you and your money. On top of that do you think people really care about your little nap on the way home. Bottom line is if you are that tired, regardless of the circumstances, then be a grown up and have a night off or find a more sedate hobby.

The cold hard truth is that setting up and taking down a track is all part of your race night, no gripes about marshaling or any other complaint you may have will change this, without the track you would not be racing. So essentially what you are saying is everyone else should work harder so you can have your fun and go home. Time to take a look in the mirror i think.

Its always a difficult line to draw when a club needs more help from the members, but always remember that somebody else is giving up a large part of their own time to run a club so you can have some enjoyment, its a thankless task, so take some time, look at the problem again, and be constructive to help your club. Otherwise, keep your dim comments to yourself.

Originally Posted by AC199

Rob,

I think this blanket coverall statement is misguided but well intentioned. Last night I was so tired at the end of racing due to the late finish (Reason for which I will go into later) I had to stop on the A64 and get an hour before I felt safe to drive home. I'm sure there were lots of people in the tiredness boat.

While i'm not disagreeing with the fact that people should stay behind to help take the track down, and I havent for the last couple of weeks I've been racing for many reasons, there has to be some impetus taken by those running the meetings to make sure it starts on time, not 25 minutes late like it was last night. Keep the time between the rounds short and get the next race running. Marshalls need to get to their points faster as well, and I think sanctions against marshalls who dont turn up before the race is started should be implemented, you have 90 seconds which is plenty of time to dump your car and get to your marshall point. My other rants about marshalling will come in a separate thread.

Its all well and good stating the obvious outcome of people not staying to put the track away, but unless the problems are tackled which cause this, you might as well just cancel the meetings.

Also, if I turn up to a meeting and i find it gets cut to 2 rounds and a final because of this, I'll be wanting my money back, that kind of threat wont fly with me and you would lose a lot of people if you try it even once. I'm not travelling 35 miles to drive for 15 minutes over the course of 3 hours fella, no way. F*** that noise. I'll sell my stuff and quit before I get played that way. Rule number 1 of running a club is dont make idiotic comments, even in the heat of the moment, and that one shows just how much you still have to learn.

[K-Brewer]

Originally Posted by Dr Fly

You sir sound like part of the problem, having been on the committee's of a couple of clubs I can happily say that members like you are not a valuable part of the club, and the club sounds much better off without you and your money. On top of that do you think people really care about your little nap on the way home. Bottom line is if you are that tired, regardless of the circumstances, then be a grown up and have a night off or find a more sedate hobby.

The cold hard truth is that setting up and taking down a track is all part of your race night, no gripes about marshaling or any other complaint you may have will change this, without the track you would not be racing. So essentially what you are saying is everyone else should work harder so you can have your fun and go home. Time to take a look in the mirror i think.

Its always a difficult line to draw when a club needs more help from the members, but always remember that somebody else is giving up a large part of their own time to run a club so you can have some enjoyment, its a thankless task, so take some time, look at the problem again, and be constructive to help your club. Otherwise, keep your dim comments to yourself.

[robpearce255]

Thanks for the support guys. It was my birthday yesterday, I still went to work all morning, I still came racing in the evening instead of going out, I was with the first few in as I always am, set up race control, helped built the track while jerry did booking in for me, raced, marshalled, ran race control all night, packed away and was the last one out of the gates as I often am. Got home and had a cider and a piece of birthday cake before bed. Now there's a tiring day for you. And I put every last bit of effort into doing that every Saturday, because I love the club and want it to continue running for the enjoyment of others and myself. I just wish other people would do their bit too. That's all.

[robpearce255]

To anyone coming across this, who has not seen the rest of the discussion on YORCC facebook. Don't worry we have made up and intend to work together to sort the club's problems.

If you aren't in the facebook group and would like to join us on there, get in touch asking to be invited to the YORCC facebook group.

Thanks.

[AC199]

Originally Posted by Dr Fly

You sir sound like part of the problem, having been on the committee's of a couple of clubs I can happily say that members like you are not a valuable part of the club, and the club sounds much better off without you and your money. On top of that do you think people really care about your little nap on the way home. Bottom line is if you are that tired, regardless of the circumstances, then be a grown up and have a night off or find a more sedate hobby.

Thanks for your valuable input. Given the fact that 1. You have no idea what went down, and 2. Unless this is someone trying to be a forum warrior, most likely this is someone who lacks the spine to put his own name to his comments I'll deal with you the same as I would any other forum warrior. The door is over there, don't let it hit your arse on the way out. I'm not going to publicise the cause, but the outcomes speak for themselves. The guys at the club know what I've been doing for the last 8 months and have been very supportive of that. What this club doesn't need is someone without a clue of the minutiae posting his or her drivelous shit and stoking the fire rather than letting 2 good mates vent and then deal with it in their own way. Having said that though you do sound like the type of person who would step between people arguing all the time, so I do hope there has been no permanent damage from the repetitious pummelings you've clearly taken.

Originally Posted by Dr Fly

The cold hard truth is that setting up and taking down a track is all part of your race night, no gripes about marshaling or any other complaint you may have will change this, without the track you would not be racing. So essentially what you are saying is everyone else should work harder so you can have your fun and go home. Time to take a look in the mirror i think.

See the comment above, but again thanks for your comments. You have no idea peoples circumstances yet you feel the need to post. Wonderful. With this one however you forget that most people have a life before racing, and I and my family ran one of the largest Motocross clubs in the north of England for 12 years. I am acutely aware of how it works. My "gripes" about marshalling are to do with safety and the fact that a 6 year old was left to marshall on his own and almost got his legs broken 4 or 5 times in 1 race. So concern for someones safety is not important to you? I'd love to race at your club, do you race next to an A&E or do you simply shove the broken and battered out the door at the end and claim "its just racing"?

Originally Posted by Dr Fly

Its always a difficult line to draw when a club needs more help from the members, but always remember that somebody else is giving up a large part of their own time to run a club so you can have some enjoyment, its a thankless task, so take some time, look at the problem again, and be constructive to help your club. Otherwise, keep your dim comments to yourself.

This I wont even bother responding to. I have no idea who you are and honestly after your comments here, dont care either. Protip Captain Experience, dont get between friends arguing it will only ever end badly for you, never for them. Myself and Rob have numerous lines of communications to resolve our differences, and that has been done. Your post was neither wanted, nor needed from my point of view yet you decided to give us the benefit of your wisdom. Thanks. I slept much better last night knowing that you had done that, it made me think about my actions so much...

[bretts]

Hi Rob, I'll help you next time I race (I usually help a bit putting out/putting away).

Anyway, I remember at one club in the dim and distant past they might have had some sort of practise token system where only the people who put out or put away the track got one.

So it was, "no help, no practise for you, matey".

[Moss Models]

Originally Posted by bretts

Hi Rob, I'll help you next time I race (I usually help a bit putting out/putting away).

Anyway, I remember at one club in the dim and distant past they might have had some sort of practise token system where only the people who put out or put away the track got one.

So it was, "no help, no practise for you, matey".

Thats a great idea! Love it.

[DCM]

Gosh, this is a discussion I have seen god knows how many times in 24ywars racing. You simply can't FORCE people to help, the only thing you can do is educate them. If by them not helping, club finishes early, then so be it, we all deserve a reasonable home time, if people want that extra round, chip in, simples.

One warning though, by being very aggressive you can quickly find you lose members

[Robby]

Originally Posted by DCM

Gosh, this is a discussion I have seen god knows how many times in 24ywars racing. You simply can't FORCE people to help, the only thing you can do is educate them. If by them not helping, club finishes early, then so be it, we all deserve a reasonable home time, if people want that extra round, chip in, simples.

One warning though, by being very aggressive you can quickly find you lose members

Precisely!

I've been involved in this hobby for decades as well, and seen this sort of argument go 'round and 'round over and over again. I get it, but you're overlooking the obvious here chaps.

And it's been my experience that the only way to guarantee yourself racers' participation in setting up and taking down is by not charging entry fees for the races. That way, only the ones doing the actual work are allowed to run their cars.
Otherwise, once you hold out your hand demanding entry fees - then you lose the right to demand people to do more than just race and leave, as it's their right to do so.
They paid for the right to race, they didn't pay for the right to pick up the track.

At the same time, once you open it up to excuses why "some" shouldn't have to help - regardless what that excuse might be - you open yourselves to ANY other excuse.
Sorry for being brutal here -- but if one has physical limitations you're "supposed" to get a substitute marshal to take care of your duties, so by the same token you should rightly bring someone to take up your share of the track at the end of the night, and if your excuse is that you brought your small children and they need to get off to bed, then you shouldn't bring your children out at night.

Reading around this forum, every time I turn around it seems there's some club that's shutting down their program, or threatening to, due to lack of sufficient numbers (and their entry fees) to support renting a hall or venue to hold races. Why do you think this is happening?
I'll tell you. While there are a lot of potential explanations, at the end of the day (for one reason or another) racers end up not feeling welcome and don't end up returning. They either quit altogether, or they find somewhere else they feel more welcome.


I understand, I totally "get it." I've been involved in running clubs, running races, designing tracks, putting them up and taking them down - the issues haven't changed from 30 years ago to today, and they're not going to change in the future. You've got to come to grips with the fact that some people are workers, some enjoy participating, some don't, some are lazy, and others just need to leave early. Dealing with it is part of running a club and having races. If you can't deal with it, then stop running races and allow those with more patience to do it.

It's also been my experience that a surefire way to make racers feel unwelcome is to chastise them publicly and become aggressive with your approach to them. Grow men don't appreciate being dealt with like they're children, even by their mums, regardless if you think they're right or wrong.


'You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.'

[NeilD]

Originally Posted by Robby

Precisely!

I've been involved in this hobby for decades as well, and seen this sort of argument go 'round and 'round over and over again. I get it, but you're overlooking the obvious here chaps.

And it's been my experience that the only way to guarantee yourself racers' participation in setting up and taking down is by not charging entry fees for the races. That way, only the ones doing the actual work are allowed to run their cars.
Otherwise, once you hold out your hand demanding entry fees - then you lose the right to demand people to do more than just race and leave, as it's their right to do so.
They paid for the right to race, they didn't pay for the right to pick up the track.

At the same time, once you open it up to excuses why "some" shouldn't have to help - regardless what that excuse might be - you open yourselves to ANY other excuse.
Sorry for being brutal here -- but if one has physical limitations you're "supposed" to get a substitute marshal to take care of your duties, so by the same token you should rightly bring someone to take up your share of the track at the end of the night, and if your excuse is that you brought your small children and they need to get off to bed, then you shouldn't bring your children out at night.

Reading around this forum, every time I turn around it seems there's some club that's shutting down their program, or threatening to, due to lack of sufficient numbers (and their entry fees) to support renting a hall or venue to hold races. Why do you think this is happening?
I'll tell you. While there are a lot of potential explanations, at the end of the day (for one reason or another) racers end up not feeling welcome and don't end up returning. They either quit altogether, or they find somewhere else they feel more welcome.


I understand, I totally "get it." I've been involved in running clubs, running races, designing tracks, putting them up and taking them down - the issues haven't changed from 30 years ago to today, and they're not going to change in the future. You've got to come to grips with the fact that some people are workers, some enjoy participating, some don't, some are lazy, and others just need to leave early. Dealing with it is part of running a club and having races. If you can't deal with it, then stop running races and allow those with more patience to do it.

It's also been my experience that a surefire way to make racers feel unwelcome is to chastise them publicly and become aggressive with your approach to them. Grow men don't appreciate being dealt with like they're children, even by their mums, regardless if you think they're right or wrong.


'You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.'

Wise words

[Robby]

Originally Posted by NeilD

Wise words

Thanks.


And, just to add, a couple more thoughts.......

I'm also not sure when the practice of not awarding prizes to the winners of weekly races started, but IMHO this has also contributed to the "finish and leave" practice by racers. There's no (real) motivation for them to stay nowadays.
All of you new guys don't remember of course, and you might think it nutty, but there was a time when part of the weekly entry fees (from the previous week) paid for small trophies, or plaques, or neck ribbons, or even large chocolate bars to the podium finishers in each class.
I know this sounds odd to all of you thinking trophies are only awarded for the larger events, regionals and nationals and end of season extravaganzas and the such - but it used to be a point of pride, and something to race for each week. Heck, I still have the first tiny little trophy I ever received - for winning the B-final. LOL I also won dozens of little (20x70mm) dash plaques, that I pasted all over my pitbox, from various tracks. It was a mark of honor in collecting these prizes, little as they were.
But here's the kicker....
These weren't distributed until the end of the night, after everything was packed away, prior to shutting off the lights - and while there were still chaps that hauled arse immediately after their individual final was done, clubs at least guaranteed themselves the podium finishers would hang around and contribute to packing things up. If you didn't stay, you couldn't collect your prize later.
Yes, it was a little more cost for the club, and a little more work for the race director organizing and handing out the awards - but it was some kind of reward, a lure to keep people around afterwards, instead of just demanding entry fees for races from which racers walked away empty handed afterwards (we keep like comparing ourselves to real 1:1 racing, but we're the only kind of racing in which the podium finishers receive nothing for their efforts).
Nowadays all it seems is that clubs are trying to turn it into profit-making endeavors, and (unfortunately) race directors end up with the reputation of being the bully bellowing on the microphone (no offense intended) - and (like I said earlier) when you make it your right to insist on racers paying entry fees to race, then it's the racers right to leave when they're done.

Again, as I was saying earlier - it's all about attracting racers (flies/honey), and not doing things to run them off.


Another thing I suggested to a small club, that didn't have the manpower if everyone left in a rush, was that part of the entry fees each week be a premium (maybe a pound or two). This premium was returned, in cash, to those that stayed around and helped take down the track at the end of the night. This helped, especially for those of us that are cheap (or poor) as if enough people didn't hang around and help those that did ended up racing for free that night.

[farmboy]

Hey, only six weeks till the school holidays and we can spend Saturday nights at home with the family. (shudders)

[AC199]

Jesus, one little comment soon brings the nutters out of the woodwork doesn't it.

Thanks for your comments, but please do us a favour and stop posting about how awesome you are. We dont need it. I think its brilliant that you ran a club, I think its awesome that you have your finger on the pulse, but really, unless the club you ran was YORCC and you ran it last week, I'm not in the slightest bit interested in your pearly wisdom.

We have our own ideas about how to resolve these issues, and we will implement them in due course. If they work, great, if they dont, well we're all big boys and girls, I'm sure we could think of a few more to try...

Please feel free to go and bother another club, because its like this fella.

1. No 2 clubs are the same
2. No 2 people are the same
3. It wasnt better in your day, it was different

Thanks for posting, but its time to leave.

Bye bye now.

[robpearce255]

I have to say I agree I'm afraid, You are probably un-aware that we are all good friends discussing this, although it sometimes got a little heated. Please leave us to sort out our own club. The title of my first post starting this discussion was "NOTICE TO ALL YORCC MEMBERS" says it all really.

[Robby]

"If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience."


I'm always fascinated by the young-uns that think they have it all figured out - and yet instead of repeating the same mistakes their predecessors made, they make it worse. And yet, when someone that's been around the block more than once makes a suggestion, the response is, "I know what I'm doing" as they're pointing the gun at their foot.


Ultimately, regardless you call it a NOTICE or not - when you post on a pubic DISCUSSION forum a discussion is more than likely going to pursue. That's why they call them discussion forums, and not notice forums. If you're not interested in discussing, then post it on your blog. Makes things lots easier, and leads to lots less confusion.



Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Bye bye now.

[robpearce255]

I honestly don't care what you have to say anymore and neither do my friends. Thank you and goodbye!