Finals ..... FTD .v. Qualifying points

Aire valley · #1 11-02-2014

Currently Finals are sorted based on points scored during Qualifying heats ( rather than the normal FTD system ) the theory being that qualifying is smoothed out and rewards consistency rather than say 3 poor rounds but one very quick one i.e. FTD .....
Any pros /cons , preferences..?
Personally, I prefer the FTD system, but there is some merit in the current system.......not sure quite why it was adopted though..

neallewis · #2 11-02-2014

Yes I much prefer the FTD or best 2/4 rather than round by round.
One bad run or unfair takeout (of which there are many in lower heats) and you an kiss a decent qualifying final position goodbye.

Aire valley · #3 11-02-2014

I agree, but it doesn't only take a poor round to make a difference. I am usually fairly consistent (albeit rather slow....! ) but generally get quicker as rounds progress.... However I have taken particular interest over the past two weeks, and on both occasions, would have ended up in a higher final based on FTD..!

Oscar · #4 12-02-2014

The biggest single influence on the FTD vs RBR is that tracks change, even indoors.
Last time out the practice and R1 were slippery, then the grip increasingly picked up right until the end.
A couple of meetings earlier saw a slippery practice, then a higher grip level which noticeably dropped away in R4 and finals.
If I have a perfect run in R1 on a slippy track, then beat my best time in R3 despite several mistakes, is that a fair way??
If you were taken out by back markers or a car failure when the track was at its peak, should that affect your final position?
In my opinion that is why FTD is no longer the norm and RBR is the better all round fair solution.

Aire valley · #5 12-02-2014

Thanks John....interesting concept..... If RBR is best, I wonder why most clubs , Regionals and Nationals are run on FTD ...?
Just trying to get some debate going...

Robfo · #6 12-02-2014

I'm not sure they are run on FTD anymore. Can't remember the last time i raced at a meeting with FTD instead of RBR.

Oscar · #7 12-02-2014

Every single Regional and National I have ever attended (Not just 10th scale) in the last 10 years has run RBR, with the exception of one meeting at Bury Metro years ago which ran FTD on a hot sunny day when the forecast was for the weather to remain constant.
Another bonus of RBR is the track can be changed if for example a crater or puddle develops or there is a spillage or even a safety issue.

Oh, and debate is no bad thing if approached sensibly

Aire valley · #8 12-02-2014

Ooer...apologies, I am obviously seriously out of date...

However, the BRCA rules state that qualifying can be RBR or FTD at the Race Directors discretion..!
I bet I am not the only one who finds RBR confusing whereas FTD is obvious..
To help myself ,and others understand RBR ...here is an extract from the BRCA

The Round by Round qualifying method awards points for each competitor’s position in each qualifying round individually. Highest qualifying position in each Round will score zero (0) points, second place will score two (2) points, third place three (3) points and so on. (Regional events can amend this points system subject to software compatibility). Weather/external circumstances may prevent all scheduled qualifying rounds being completed, therefore points from each driver’s best qualifying rounds are added together to determine a final qualifying position as follows :-

This suggests that if ,say, there are 40 drivers at a meeting, the fastest driver each round scores 0 points and the slowest driver scores 40 points..?
That I understand...

However I am fairly sure that we are not doing that, so must be applying the "amendment subject to software compatibility" .....that's what I don't understand...!
Probably I am wrong again...

Robfo · #9 12-02-2014

I think the only difference is that at most meetings you get 1 rather than 0.

I remembered the last meeting... Pretty much all the TC racing i did. It was very rare to run RBR unless it rained.

Both have their place but with offroad RBR is much better suited, especially outdoors.

Danny Harrison · #10 12-02-2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robfo

I think the only difference is that at most meetings you get 1 rather than 0.

I remembered the last meeting... Pretty much all the TC racing i did. It was very rare to run RBR unless it rained.

Both have their place but with offroad RBR is much better suited, especially outdoors.

Definitely prefer rbr. Could have a good day all day in wet then break the car in a dry last round. Most people can then out qualify you even if you were quicker all day.

Aire valley · #11 13-02-2014

Definitely prefer rbr. Could have a good day all day in wet then break the car in a dry last round. Most people can then out qualify you even if you were quicker all day.

If you had a bad last round, you would be out qualified under either system as you would get few if any points under RBR for that last round..!!

ahhseeten · #12 13-02-2014

I remember the days when RBR was a new thing and only ONE round counted which I really liked. I like the FTD system too because it is not as demanding of consistency. So one round to count RBR is the happy medium for me. It worked fine. There would obviously be a lot of drivers on the same scores at the end of qualifying and so in that event your relative position to them went on your best backup round score. I remember I was at a national where my best round finish was a 9th. There was two other drivers who had 9s as their best but my backup round of about 12th or something was just good enough to keep me in the B final. My first ever national B. It kills both birds at once for me. You can guarantees good qualifying result in the first round and your not dead even if you have had a bad day all day and need a banzai last run.. I miss those days...

neallewis · #13 13-02-2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny Harrison

Definitely prefer rbr. Could have a good day all day in wet then break the car in a dry last round. Most people can then out qualify you even if you were quicker all day.

Danny you say that, but with your consistency and recent reliability issues you would most certainly be qualifying higher under FTD. You tend to get one or two fast times in a meeting and the others are slower, either due to problems, takeouts or your own mistakes. At any of the bigger meetings, if they were FTD you would certainly be higher up the grid come finals. Under RBR your bad runs bring you down.
At a club we race at that does run FTD, you are consistently TQ, but you wouldn't be if it were under RBR.

Just sayin' ;-)

neallewis · #14 13-02-2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aire valley

Definitely prefer rbr. Could have a good day all day in wet then break the car in a dry last round. Most people can then out qualify you even if you were quicker all day.

If you had a bad last round, you would be out qualified under either system as you would get few if any points under RBR for that last round..!!

Er hang on which is it? in the top post you said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aire valley

Personally, I prefer the FTD system, but there is some merit in the current system..

I do personally prefer FTD as ultimately I'd get further up the finals grid with one faster run, but I enjoy racing with whatever the club runs. If it was a problem I wouldn't come. The biggest issues to qualifying performance currently indoors is the moving track, bad marshalling, and take-outs.

Aire valley · #15 13-02-2014

The bit about wet and dry was supposed to be quoting Danny..!

For all the reasons you said I have and do always prefer FTD....
it would be very unlucky to have 4 bad rounds, but quite possible to have 2 or 3 for various reasons, setup ,tyres, accident etc. but one good clear run could still give a good final position... I think most drivers would prefer that one good run , their maximum potential, to count for final position.
Seems though I may be wrong...

Oscar · #16 13-02-2014

Even in RBR, your FTD makes a difference.
Take for example last week when I gave the 4wd a rare run. I had a 4th and 2 5th's in round, pretty respectable I thought. Imagine my surprise to be if I remember correctly 3rd in the B final

Several drivers were tied on 9 points, and despite the fact I could turn out several decent runs, ultimately my fastest time was the slowest, so I was placed at the bottom of those on the same points....

steveproracing · #17 13-02-2014

ftd you only have to have 1 good run out of 4
rbr you still only need 2 good runs out of 4

its hardly a massive difference but does help equalise the inconsistencies of a days racing, track moving weather changes surface changes etc.
it is ultimately the fairest way to score a meeting.
it teaches us to race conservatively rewarding consistency, which in turn teaches us to drive faster without crashing. all ftd encourages is balls out runs where if you crash it doesn't matter. as you can try again next run, but this also encourages people trying to drive faster than their skill, this can lead to them crashing and either wrecking the track or binning someone else off the track.

these are the reasons the brca off road section and the oople series use rbr

Jabber · #18 13-02-2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aire valley

Definitely prefer rbr. Could have a good day all day in wet then break the car in a dry last round. Most people can then out qualify you even if you were quicker all day.

If you had a bad last round, you would be out qualified under either system as you would get few if any points under RBR for that last round..!!

But the wet round scores would count so in this situation Danny is right as its your best 2 from 4 in RBR and if its dry in the last round you have only one chance with FTD.

Aire valley · #19 13-02-2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscar

Even in RBR, your FTD makes a difference.
Take for example last week when I gave the 4wd a rare run. I had a 4th and 2 5th's in round, pretty respectable I thought. Imagine my surprise to be if I remember correctly 3rd in the B final

Several drivers were tied on 9 points, and despite the fact I could turn out several decent runs, ultimately my fastest time was the slowest, so I was placed at the bottom of those on the same points....

Therein lies my confusion.....

Were there two heats of 4wd..say 16 /17 drivers...? If I understand the system (quoted above) points should be awarded per class (not heat)... Therefore each round points should have been 0...16 ......! So for best two rounds 0....32 points
The odds of several drivers tying on 9 points are very extreme...... 4 +5 yourself
0+9. 1+8..2+7. 3+6 so a maximum of 5 on the same 9 points Possible but highly unlikely..
That is why I'm sure the system is not quite right as it stands.... No criticism of anybody intended here I just feel something is wrong with the program..

Robbiejuk · #20 14-02-2014

Not a maximum of five. Let's say oscar got his 4 and 5 in rounds 1 and 2 of qualifying and then didn't score higher in the last two rounds of qualifying, I could get a 4 and 5 in rounds 3 and 4 of qualifying. That could also happen with the other score combinations you posted which ten people could have the same points.

When I explain round by round qualifying I always tell people to think that each round of qualifying is a separate race meeting. So it would be a four meeting championship with your best two rounds of the championship to count. Final standings in the championship is where you qualify in the finals. Usually people understand that.