BRCA Insurance

[DCM]

I don't mean the BRCA do all the policies, just a general umbrella that you can use with a broker to push the price down a bit.

[knighthawk]

First of all I started this thread !

There has been some very good points made and some not so good.

I believe that only 5% of BRCA Members have read the whole handbook cover to cover for each class they race.
Most members either cherry pick and find the info needed or are told by a third as problems arise, as this subject has.

Marshal point positioning and safety is a major issue main due to the point is put there a car is most likely to crash so in some instances is in its design in an unsafe position, but that's where it needs to be.

Marshal points are also placed where the member has to marshal two points of the track ( not the norm but it does happen ) and in the case you can't look in two direction and as such you may not see the car coming and hence an accident waiting to happen.

Next the Driver of the car is almost 99% at fault, ( wait for abuse ) he or she is after all driving the thing. A Marshal wearing a florry yellow bib should stand out, plus shouting car on the straight, on the whoops etc etc is ignored, so is the marshal at fault, sorry but no, warnings have been given and ignored. I was at two national indoor meetings earlier this year when one driver decided, during a final, that he would try to get his car to hit the roof of the indoor event, event one, almost wiped out the whole rostrum of drivers when his car was out of control and his car landed in the catch net above the jumps, second event again jumped and his car got stuck in the lights/roof and showered the track with car parts and flo lights as this was broken. We were all warned about excessive jumping, but this was ignored just because it was a laugh. Race director's to my knowledge did nothing about these issues.

Like many, many of us who have been racing for years ( 30 in my case ) safety has come a long way, yellow/orange bibs for instance, only over 12's as marshals but accidents will always happen, the very definition of and accident is " An accident or mishap is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity ".

Sorry but just saying you didn't read or are to lazy to read the rules ridiculous.

Like I said I've been racing for some 30 years, have enjoyed every class I've raced and will continue to and will also marshal to the best of my ability, but I will state this, I will now consider is it safe and is the fault of the problem down to bad drivers !


I do think the insurance option should be offered on the BRCA, with so many members a potential discount should be available.

I also agree with the above, Personal Accident Insurance will not cover you if you put yourself in harms way, I've just asked an insurance broker in town this question.

[mark christopher]

As Jim Spencer has put, he was tasked with getting a group quote, if I remember correctly it could only be done if all members took it, and membership would have been around _£30 when it was voted on at the agm it got no where as no one would second it.

[knighthawk]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

As Jim Spencer has put, he was tasked with getting a group quote, if I remember correctly it could only be done if all members took it, and membership would have been around _£30 when it was voted on at the agm it got no where as no one would second it.

Did everyone at the agm realise the insurance currently offered was insufficient !

With something as large as this issue a paper ballot should be done with all BRCA Members as very few can attend the agm meeting due to time and financial restraints

[knighthawk]

Also to Jim and the rest of the BRCA Committee
This is not in any way a dig into your abilities or the time you give !

This issue has arisen, some have more light than others on this subject and it is more than clear that its not made clear enough that 100% know the facts !!!!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by knighthawk

Did everyone at the agm realise the insurance currently offered was insufficient !

With something as large as this issue a paper ballot should be done with all BRCA Members as very few can attend the agm meeting due to time and financial restraints

Im sure Jim explained the difference in both covers.

I fail to see how you did not know after thirty years of racing, that the third party public liability did not cover you for personal inquiry it has allways been the same, ask your broker about third party insurance...

As I and others have posted, if YOU want to be covered get the required insurance, I'm covered for sick pay off work by my company. So don't want to pay extra on my membership thanks.

[Colin Kirkham]

What the heck is £30 ? Your paying more than that for a set of tyres now!

[knighthawk]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Im sure Jim explained the difference in both covers.

I fail to see how you did not know after thirty years of racing, that the third party public liability did not cover you for personal inquiry it has allways been the same, ask your broker about third party insurance...

As I and others have posted, if YOU want to be covered get the required insurance, I'm covered for sick pay off work by my company. So don't want to pay extra on my membership thanks.

It makes no difference if i been racing 30 years or 30 minutes
Like I said in my earlier post, not all read the book cover to cover, I was told by a Club Official that I was joining, that we need BRCA for insurance purposes and it covers you for accidents at race meetings within the track domain. And to be honest I don't think the books been around for 30 years, neither has BRCA subs.

Also check the wording of your policy with work or a Personal Accident Insurance, putting yourself in harms warm ( ie causing part of the accident ) invalidates the insurance.

[crtpromachine]

Originally Posted by moffett-mechanic

On the point of "safe marshall points" I personally dislike chairs being placed nr jumps, as you are creating an increased danger to head injurys as your sat lower and cannot move out of the way as quickly as being stood !

There was a new rule came in for this problem there should be a marshall only at the beginning of a jump section and at the end no where else on the jump section as it was classed as unsafe;

[crtpromachine]

Originally Posted by neallewis

That's exactly what I did when I was racing recently with a small boy at the end of the straight, who simply couldn't cope, and was in danger. To be fair his guardian should have paid more attention to him, he was about 7-8 and really was in the wrong place. When mentioned, the meeting chief moved him for the next round.

Surely this child was well under age to be out marshalling anyways as the legal limit is 12 for marshalling in line with the BRCA Rules .This is down to the parent/guardian to either marshall for the child or they are taking it on there heads if anything happend no claim would be made as should not of been out marshalling;

Normally this is said at drivers briefing or in the rules of whatever meeting or series you are attending

[DCM]

re:marshalling points and jumps... As the years have gone on, tracks have got faster and bigger and more/bigger jumps at the request of the drivers.

How far do you really want the BRCA to have to legislate for you to run your car on a club day?

[DCM]

Originally Posted by crtpromachine

Surely this child was well under age to be out marshalling anyways as the legal limit is 12 for marshalling in line with the BRCA Rules .This is down to the parent/guardian to either marshall for the child or they are taking it on there heads if anything happend no claim would be made as should not of been out marshalling;

Normally this is said at drivers briefing or in the rules of whatever meeting or series you are attending

Depends on the class being raced.

[crtpromachine]

I have had my few posts on this subject and i am going to let it lie as i could sit here posting till the cows come home and it is not going to change anything or improve my condition at this moment in time

I have been back to hospital today to see othapedic Consultant and i am in a leg brace aided with crutches for a further 3 months. This is after 8 weeks of being in plaster .After this time he is hoping for some improvement so he can start further treatment on my nerve damage along side with soft tissue and damage to the top surface of the bones;

Oh the joys of car racing but it is a MOTORSPORT and can be DANGEROUS

[peetbee]

Originally Posted by knighthawk

Like I said in my earlier post, not all read the book cover to cover, I was told by a Club Official that I was joining, that we need BRCA for insurance purposes and it covers you for accidents at race meetings within the track domain. And to be honest I don't think the books been around for 30 years, neither has BRCA subs.

So how is it anyone else's fault if they choose not to read the book?
That club official must have been one of those people too!
They may not have been around for 30 years, but in the time they have been around, it has been the same level of cover. I'm not sure what your point was there?

As regards to balloting members and making decisions outside of the AGM, as I understand it requires a change to the BRCA constitution which in turn needs to be voted in at an AGM - I know it's very catch 22, but them's the rules the BRCA committee has to abide by.

And yes I have been injured by cars, fortunately not as badly as others and I wish them all a speedy recovery.

[rollingon4]

I've been reading this thread with interest, it's safe to say we all enjoy the hobby and I don't think many of us would believe that 'where there is blame there is a claim', accidents happen and you get on with life as those that have been hit by cars on this thread and taken it on the chin, no pun intended, prove. BUT working for the past 8 years in the insurance industry it's easy to spot some massive grey areas and loopholes regarding the current rules, all it needs is a compensation claim from someone greedy to set a precedent and I guarantee no note in a rulebook will make any difference.

I'm also a rock climber and find the below article/link outrageous as it effected a company that friends work for, Craggy Island in Guildford, and had the climbing community outraged, the same thing could potentially happen to any RC club. For some personal responsibility or liability means nothing, it does give food for thought as to how little water a disclaimer holds though if you're determined to hold someone responsible. A broken ankle, deemed to be an injury worth £150,000 in this case, also shows how much can be at stake:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66978

[Colin Kirkham]

Well that could open a can of worms ? She is only 1/3rd to blame ????

So working in the insurance industry.. Can you tell us all is there such a policy
That wound cover lost of earnings, and not looking to be made rich!
That we could take out, which would pay out after say, if you out of work for 4 weeks, due to an accident which occurred due to marshalling a R/C Model car ?

[Mad-Wolfie]

i think we are missing a crucial point here guys. If someone stuffs their car onto it's roof or sticks it against something & can't move the car under their cars own power, is it YOUR fault when you are marshaling that someone has binned it? I think the thing is & has to be only move when YOU get the gut feeling it's safe to do so.

Yes we all get narked at Marshals (i even do it myself) when a marshal doesn't put your car back on the track but so long as he's not stood there with his/her hands in his pockets, picking his nose or is only marshaling his mates cars up 1st (which does often happen if Father is marshaling Son, nobody else's car seems to matter) even though your car has been there long before his mate crashed, then as i see it, so long as the marshal has moved to give you the idea he's paying attention & knows your car has crashed the only thing to do is be lenient with him because he is the one risking his neck to put your cock-up right.

[Skye]

I have read all of this with interest and can see valid points from both sides of the argument so don't have a strong opinion myself but there are a few questions....

Realistically, are clubs / fellow drivers etc going to accept it when (not if) someone refuses to marshall? If its voluntary then no one should be forced, but in my experience you often are otherwise you are threatened with being penalised.

I will always marshall and will always try to marshall as I would wish to be marshalled myself, but honestly, if someone else refused on safety grounds then that should be graciously accepted. Of course, we all know this would spread like wildfire until no-one wanted to marshall anymore and when asked why safety would always be the get out clause, even if it had nothing to do with it (laziness, broken car to fix, hung over etc etc...)

Secondly, all examples talk of cars colliding with people and therefore the blame at least partially being lying with the victim for stepping into the path of the oncoming vehicle.

What is the score when no car is involved? Last winter I fell over 3 times at Stotfold whilst marshalling and I saw others running into double figures also fall or slip over. The astro gets like an ice rink given some moisture in the air and a cold day.

Fortunately each time I was able to get up with no more than a sore ass/leg/wrist/back etc and carry on. What would have happened if I had broken something though, who is to blame then? If someone slipped and fell on a wet floor in a shopping mall, you can guarantee someone would pay for it. If someone tripped due to unsafe paving in the high street then someone would pay for it....

So is it any different on an RC track that has been exposed to the elements? Should a track have those little 'wet floor' signs for such occasions?

Dont get me wrong, I am not advocating the ambulance chasing type but I am interested to see where this scenario sits with regards to any insurance cover or who may be liable?

Returning back to the point of being hit by cars, I always look to see what else is approaching before stepping onto the track and if there are car(s) within a couple of seconds of me I let them pass first before marshalling the stricken car. This is surely common sense in the name of safety, but if that is the case then why do drivers of the stricken car get rowdy about not being marshalled as quickly as they would like.....

[rollingon4]

Originally Posted by moffett-mechanic

Well that could open a can of worms ? She is only 1/3rd to blame ????

So working in the insurance industry.. Can you tell us all is there such a policy
That wound cover lost of earnings, and not looking to be made rich!
That we could take out, which would pay out after say, if you out of work for 4 weeks, due to an accident which occurred due to marshalling a R/C Model car ?

Sadly personal policies of this nature are not my area of expertise so I'm of no real use there I'm afraid the difficultly arises, as others have said, in that by leaving your marshalling post you're knowingly putting yourself at risk and invalidating the terms BRCA insurance, so by putting yourself in a position of known danger you may also invalidate any additional policy you have taken out yourself. What you'd need to make sure of is that the policy includes what an insurer may deem a dangerous sport/hobby in much the same way that you will pay a premium on travel insurance for cover when skiing, climbing, mountain biking etc.

The only way I believe you'd be in the clear is to call an insurer or broker when taking out a policy and specifically inform them that you're racing and marshalling, explain the risks and why you need to be insured as a result, the aim would be to get them to write cover for it into policy document as an inclusion. The chance of ever needing to claim is slim at best but if something did happen that prevented you from working again you'd want to be certain that your insurers had agreed to underwrite the risk in the first place rather than assuming they had.

If there is one thing I do know for sure is that never assume with an insurance policy, the aim of the underwriter after all is to make as high a profit on premiums as possible whilst minimising payouts, it's just gambling with peoples misfortune as opposed to gambling on the stock market...

[Colin Kirkham]

All very interesting reading !
And some very valid points